Florida Keys: Interested in Buying Land (new house, neighborhood, zoning)
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I am amazed this thread is still alive. Let me answer it just in case people in the future read this and think it's a good idea. It's not. As an Upper Keys resident, I can tell you what you have in mind is virtually impossible, and also unadvisable. What you want is something a lot of people want, so if it were possible, you would see them all over the place.
1. First, ROGO is very hard to get. It takes years to go through, and a large percentage of people never get it at all. In the best case scenario for that, you're talking about multiple years before you can even use the land - usually the average I hear is about 3 years. And that is for first breaking ground. So if you have any building to do on the lot after that, to put in electric or water, foundation, whatever, it can take 5-8 years easy before you actually live on the lot. Everything that takes place in the Keys that relies on the work of others is excruciatingly slow, and far more expensive than you would ever imagine. A lot of it is also corrupt, which makes the process more difficult if you're an outsider. You will be required to hook up water and sewer - it is not optional - for any place that you live, at your own expense, and breaking ground in the Keys is way more expensive than other places due to the hard ground full of huge coral boulders, and the lack of licensed legal help. You have to show that you hired someone licensed as part of the permit process, so there is no going around this. As of now, things like composting toilets are not allowed, and running solely on rain catchment systems appears to be illegal. As far as I know, you can live on a property that is not hooked up to electric though, and use your own solar. But that's little consolation when the rest is required anyway, if the lot is a virgin lot. And you will be up against MAJOR environmental assessments if the land has never been built on - new lots are almost never allowed to be built on anymore, and soon they will stop completely.
2. Secondly, most areas in the Keys now are not zoned for trailers, and even fewer are zoned to allow temporary structures of any kind. This is why so many people have issues coming here with the idea that they're going to just camp in somebody's backyard for vacation - because living in a moving structure, whether that be a car, RV, rolling tiny house, or whatever, is illegal in most of Monroe County land. You would end up paying a lot more in fines than you would in renting a hotel room every night. Like many areas of the US, Monroe County has minimum sizes that structures can be built too, so truly "tiny" living is not actually legal.
3. Third, there is a very good reason such living situations are not allowed in the Keys, and it's not just about aesthetics or property values, although that certainly comes into play with the laws. Mostly, it's because most of Monroe County is in a flood zone, and ALL of Monroe County is right in the path of hurricane alley. Hurricanes here, including major category hurricanes, are a matter of WHEN, not if. They are a fact of life. In the old days, before 2002 brought a requirement for living structures to be rated for 150mph winds, there are plenty of photos and video footage of what happened to homes that did not meet these requirements. Even a small tropical storm tore them to shreds. The Upper Keys is also prone to tornadoes during storms, and if you look at what they do to trailers during the last times they have hit, it is shocking enough to not want to be part of that - they are small, but strong enough to rip even traditional foundation homes built to decent wind standards right off the ground. It gets ugly. This can happen even when it is not hurricane season.
4. Fourth, vacation rentals are illegal in nearly all of Monroe County. Almost no residential lots are zoned for rental for less than 28 days. The county is now going aggressively after violators. Additionally, it is against the law to rent out below flood for any length of time because the structure is not safe from mold and possible total wreckage in floods, so renting your structure out to other people would be violating multiple laws. Eventually, neighbors will report you. Note too that any above-flood lot in Monroe County is going to cost almost as much as waterfront lots, even when they are small and landlocked. There are few of them, and they are highly valued for building on.
So your idea is not safe, and for the most part not legal almost anywhere. The lots are still expensive, because they're in the Keys, but ANY time ANY property is cheaper in the Keys, there is a very good reason it is. Believe me, it's NEVER a deal. I spent years researching property here looking for the deals, and the things that affect properties here blow my mind - things I would never have thought of, that include massive leans on properties, code violations you can (and will) be held responsible for even after the sale, unbelievably infestation of hazardous vermin, etc.
5. Keep in mind that even if you could find a single lot in the Upper Keys that allows what you're looking for, and I doubt you will, it is highly likely in the future that they will outlaw it and force you to move, because that is the way the laws are moving. Houseboats too fall into this category, and are on their way to being completely outlawed in the area, because they have proven time and again to be death traps for the people living in them. On the other hand, if you have the patience to wait 10 or so years, the wind is also blowing toward tiny condos, which will be more affordable, AND wind rated and above flood. So if you can tolerate that lifestyle, that will be here eventually. But living in a tiny house or trailer on private land is becoming less and less legal by the year. For those who are reading this long after it was first posted, keep in mind too that most trailers and tiny houses are not at all equipped for the kind of conditions you'll find here. Even if you can move it out for every hurricane season, and manage to avoid storm tornadoes too, you'll still likely have serious problems with mold between the walls due to the extremely high humidity and poor insulation of such structures. Mold can give people extremely serious chronic illness. Infestation with termites, scorpions, fire ants, cockroaches, invasive snakes, rats, and huge beehives are quite common here, and any structure close to the ground that is not built to withstand major forces, is likely not going to be able to withstand the critter invasion either. Because of current laws and the state of nature, it's a terrible idea.
I would suggest that you look into places in Homestead and Florida City, but these issues are still going to apply there, except that it's cheaper, fewer code issues (for now), and most lots are above flood there. But it sounded like you would reject those places because they are not nice enough neighborhoods for what you want. You don't get cheap, beautiful vacation destination land that is safe and has no code requirements for affordable prices - that's just not how this world works anymore. And it's especially not how SFL works.
So if I were looking for a cheap place to buy that is convenient to the Keys, I would pick somewhere in Florida City. But that's me. I am not bothered by the petty crime there, and I like the mix of people. But choosing to live full time anywhere in SFL in a house that has absolutely no wind or flood resistance, and no real critter resistance, is stupid - this is a disaster-prone area, and we are already overdue for a serious storm to hit here. We have had a number of close calls in the past few years, and it is just a matter of time. People who go that route when they have a choice to be safer, regret it heavily. It is very sad when you look how people have reacted to natural disasters in the Keys in the past, when they were living in vulnerable housing. They are really traumatized, and quickly losing everything they ever owed. And no company or govt. entity would ever insure that (we have enough trouble just getting govt-run insurance on hurricane-proofed housing here), so you have to rebuild completely from your own willpower and hope that you did not get sick from mold exposure or injury to be able to work and build up your life again.
I don't want to see this happen to more people, so I'm being honest, it sounds romantic but it is a totally impractical idea, that is illegal here for a reason. Everybody has this dream of cheap, safe, idyllic tropical living. But it's a dream, it does not exist in reality - certainly not in SFL. If it existed, I would not have paid the outrageous amount I did for my very modest home. Reality is not romantic, but it is the truth.
The permitting system in Monroe County is a total nightmare, is unduly expensive, is corrupt, and is backed up years into the system. Attempt it only if you have tons of time and money to waste. And permits are required for absolutely everything here - including making any changes to your own home worth more than $800, and cutting any part of your own tree if it is 6ft+ tall. Permits must be displayed prominently in the front of the property, and neighbors will not hesitate to call to report you for various petty reasons if you try to skirt the system.
Incidentally, here is a brochure on ROGO in the Keys: http://www.floridakeyskeywestrealest...sguideROGO.pdf
Note that ROGO stands for Rate of Growth Ordinance, and is directly linked to the very high and ever-increasing length of time it takes to evacuate all of the Keys in a hurricane, or Turkey-Point-nuclear-meltdown (the latter of which is also relevant for Upper Keys residents). I think it is very telling that it is a "Layman's Guide to ROGO," and yet even in the dumbed-down version, it is still pretty complicated. This process is not for the faint of heart. Also, it would be naive not to realize that like everything in Monroe County, your success in this bureaucratic process depends a lot on how many Conchs are in your family, or how much money you have to grease the pockets of those who do have power here. For those who want to move to Monroe County, FL, but do not know what a "Conch" is, turn back now. It is still very much a relevant system, and probably will be here for at least the next 20 years at minimum. I know of people who made it through ROGO, but those who were not well connected, made it out when they were too old and gray to care much anymore. Most did not feel it was emotionally worth the effort and tremendous hassle.
Last edited by StarfishKey; 09-15-2016 at 08:16 PM..
People watch a 1940's, 50's, 60's movie shot on the keys and think they can have a 500 S.F. shack on the beach and go fishing from their back yard. It's like in my area, the 'city' of Northport. Back in the 60's, General Development amassed thousands of acres of land, cut it up into 80x125 lots and sold them to people from everywhere for $3500, [before the word 'infrastructure' was in the dictionary] people thinking they would build their house in paradise. All the retiring baby boomers are discovering that their lot is in a location that FPL will not be running electric for a really long time, if ever.
I am amazed this thread is still alive. Let me answer it just in case people in the future read this and think it's a good idea. It's not. As an Upper Keys resident, I can tell you what you have in mind is virtually impossible, and also unadvisable. What you want is something a lot of people want, so if it were possible, you would see them all over the place.
1. First, ROGO is very hard to get. It takes years to go through, and a large percentage of people never get it at all. In the best case scenario for that, you're talking about multiple years before you can even use the land - usually the average I hear is about 3 years. And that is for first breaking ground. So if you have any building to do on the lot after that, to put in electric or water, foundation, whatever, it can take 5-8 years easy before you actually live on the lot. Everything that takes place in the Keys that relies on the work of others is excruciatingly slow, and far more expensive than you would ever imagine. A lot of it is also corrupt, which makes the process more difficult if you're an outsider. You will be required to hook up water and sewer - it is not optional - for any place that you live, at your own expense, and breaking ground in the Keys is way more expensive than other places due to the hard ground full of huge coral boulders, and the lack of licensed legal help. You have to show that you hired someone licensed as part of the permit process, so there is no going around this. As of now, things like composting toilets are not allowed, and running solely on rain catchment systems appears to be illegal. As far as I know, you can live on a property that is not hooked up to electric though, and use your own solar. But that's little consolation when the rest is required anyway, if the lot is a virgin lot. And you will be up against MAJOR environmental assessments if the land has never been built on - new lots are almost never allowed to be built on anymore, and soon they will stop completely.
2. Secondly, most areas in the Keys now are not zoned for trailers, and even fewer are zoned to allow temporary structures of any kind. This is why so many people have issues coming here with the idea that they're going to just camp in somebody's backyard for vacation - because living in a moving structure, whether that be a car, RV, rolling tiny house, or whatever, is illegal in most of Monroe County land. You would end up paying a lot more in fines than you would in renting a hotel room every night. Like many areas of the US, Monroe County has minimum sizes that structures can be built too, so truly "tiny" living is not actually legal.
3. Third, there is a very good reason such living situations are not allowed in the Keys, and it's not just about aesthetics or property values, although that certainly comes into play with the laws. Mostly, it's because most of Monroe County is in a flood zone, and ALL of Monroe County is right in the path of hurricane alley. Hurricanes here, including major category hurricanes, are a matter of WHEN, not if. They are a fact of life. In the old days, before 2002 brought a requirement for living structures to be rated for 150mph winds, there are plenty of photos and video footage of what happened to homes that did not meet these requirements. Even a small tropical storm tore them to shreds. The Upper Keys is also prone to tornadoes during storms, and if you look at what they do to trailers during the last times they have hit, it is shocking enough to not want to be part of that - they are small, but strong enough to rip even traditional foundation homes built to decent wind standards right off the ground. It gets ugly. This can happen even when it is not hurricane season.
4. Fourth, vacation rentals are illegal in nearly all of Monroe County. Almost no residential lots are zoned for rental for less than 28 days. The county is now going aggressively after violators. Additionally, it is against the law to rent out below flood for any length of time because the structure is not safe from mold and possible total wreckage in floods, so renting your structure out to other people would be violating multiple laws. Eventually, neighbors will report you. Note too that any above-flood lot in Monroe County is going to cost almost as much as waterfront lots, even when they are small and landlocked. There are few of them, and they are highly valued for building on.
So your idea is not safe, and for the most part not legal almost anywhere. The lots are still expensive, because they're in the Keys, but ANY time ANY property is cheaper in the Keys, there is a very good reason it is. Believe me, it's NEVER a deal. I spent years researching property here looking for the deals, and the things that affect properties here blow my mind - things I would never have thought of, that include massive leans on properties, code violations you can (and will) be held responsible for even after the sale, unbelievably infestation of hazardous vermin, etc.
5. Keep in mind that even if you could find a single lot in the Upper Keys that allows what you're looking for, and I doubt you will, it is highly likely in the future that they will outlaw it and force you to move, because that is the way the laws are moving. Houseboats too fall into this category, and are on their way to being completely outlawed in the area, because they have proven time and again to be death traps for the people living in them. On the other hand, if you have the patience to wait 10 or so years, the wind is also blowing toward tiny condos, which will be more affordable, AND wind rated and above flood. So if you can tolerate that lifestyle, that will be here eventually. But living in a tiny house or trailer on private land is becoming less and less legal by the year. For those who are reading this long after it was first posted, keep in mind too that most trailers and tiny houses are not at all equipped for the kind of conditions you'll find here. Even if you can move it out for every hurricane season, and manage to avoid storm tornadoes too, you'll still likely have serious problems with mold between the walls due to the extremely high humidity and poor insulation of such structures. Mold can give people extremely serious chronic illness. Infestation with termites, scorpions, fire ants, cockroaches, invasive snakes, rats, and huge beehives are quite common here, and any structure close to the ground that is not built to withstand major forces, is likely not going to be able to withstand the critter invasion either. Because of current laws and the state of nature, it's a terrible idea.
I would suggest that you look into places in Homestead and Florida City, but these issues are still going to apply there, except that it's cheaper, fewer code issues (for now), and most lots are above flood there. But it sounded like you would reject those places because they are not nice enough neighborhoods for what you want. You don't get cheap, beautiful vacation destination land that is safe and has no code requirements for affordable prices - that's just not how this world works anymore. And it's especially not how SFL works.
So if I were looking for a cheap place to buy that is convenient to the Keys, I would pick somewhere in Florida City. But that's me. I am not bothered by the petty crime there, and I like the mix of people. But choosing to live full time anywhere in SFL in a house that has absolutely no wind or flood resistance, and no real critter resistance, is stupid - this is a disaster-prone area, and we are already overdue for a serious storm to hit here. We have had a number of close calls in the past few years, and it is just a matter of time. People who go that route when they have a choice to be safer, regret it heavily. It is very sad when you look how people have reacted to natural disasters in the Keys in the past, when they were living in vulnerable housing. They are really traumatized, and quickly losing everything they ever owed. And no company or govt. entity would ever insure that (we have enough trouble just getting govt-run insurance on hurricane-proofed housing here), so you have to rebuild completely from your own willpower and hope that you did not get sick from mold exposure or injury to be able to work and build up your life again.
I don't want to see this happen to more people, so I'm being honest, it sounds romantic but it is a totally impractical idea, that is illegal here for a reason. Everybody has this dream of cheap, safe, idyllic tropical living. But it's a dream, it does not exist in reality - certainly not in SFL. If it existed, I would not have paid the outrageous amount I did for my very modest home. Reality is not romantic, but it is the truth.
The permitting system in Monroe County is a total nightmare, is unduly expensive, is corrupt, and is backed up years into the system. Attempt it only if you have tons of time and money to waste. And permits are required for absolutely everything here - including making any changes to your own home worth more than $800, and cutting any part of your own tree if it is 6ft+ tall. Permits must be displayed prominently in the front of the property, and neighbors will not hesitate to call to report you for various petty reasons if you try to skirt the system.
Incidentally, here is a brochure on ROGO in the Keys: http://www.floridakeyskeywestrealest...sguideROGO.pdf
Note that ROGO stands for Rate of Growth Ordinance, and is directly linked to the very high and ever-increasing length of time it takes to evacuate all of the Keys in a hurricane, or Turkey-Point-nuclear-meltdown (the latter of which is also relevant for Upper Keys residents). I think it is very telling that it is a "Layman's Guide to ROGO," and yet even in the dumbed-down version, it is still pretty complicated. This process is not for the faint of heart. Also, it would be naive not to realize that like everything in Monroe County, your success in this bureaucratic process depends a lot on how many Conchs are in your family, or how much money you have to grease the pockets of those who do have power here. For those who want to move to Monroe County, FL, but do not know what a "Conch" is, turn back now. It is still very much a relevant system, and probably will be here for at least the next 20 years at minimum. I know of people who made it through ROGO, but those who were not well connected, made it out when they were too old and gray to care much anymore. Most did not feel it was emotionally worth the effort and tremendous hassle.
Thank you for the comment. Yes unfortunately this idea is not feasible but at least I tried and got all the information.
Honestly, when we're talking about construction near the waterfront (everything in the Keys) you really need to be having discussions with experts - building contractors with extensive experience with these projects. There is a maze of complex regulation. While you can start with the local building codes, there are a ton of other legislation that affects construction. https://fl-monroecounty.civicplus.co...x.aspx?NID=243
Honestly, you're probably better off buying existing construction rather than getting into the mess. It will take a lot longer and be much more expensive to build than you expect.
This.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Town
Thank you again! But maybe you could recommend some safe area to buy land for a mobile house somewhere between Miami and Keys? Maybe it will be a lot easier to make it on a mainland FL. Of course I prefer Key Largo, but if it is so restricted then maybe there is an easier way. What I am looking for is a peaceful safe place not far from the ocean. But not necessarily too close (maybe 5-10 miles away). Thanks.
Did you look at Florida City and Homestead?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Town
Well it's too early to accuse me of poor planning because I haven't started with a planning yet.
This is just initial inquiry about the land, just to start with a planning.
But there is still probably a chance to make it.
What if I first put a small cabin that doesn't require permit? nts[/url]
Something like this:
And it will be a temporary/vacation residence that can be transformed in normal residence in a future as soon as I get that rogo permit?
Regarding flooding and mobile houses: I see mobile homes from early 1970s in Key Largo and they are still alive.
Also some of the lots in my initial list are located not in a flood zone.
**********
Happy Holidays to all!
Monroe County will fine you DAILY. They have people that do nothing but drive around looking for unpermitted work. You cannot build anything in Florida without a permit.
StarfishKey gave you excellent advice.
My parents have a home in Old Town Key West that my dad bought in the 1970s and just to fart, he needs extensive permitting.
just a FYI any existing home that is for sale is already permitted and counted in the county growth plan. this means you will automatically have a permit to build on that lot as you are just replaceing an existing building/home. no need to wait for a rogo permit. look for a lot with a older structure/mobile home on it.
like this one. 422 Lime Dr, Key Largo, FL 33037 - Home For Sale and Real Estate Listing - realtor.com®
you can buy the lot now and build later. you can even tear down the structure to drop the taxes a little until you want to build a place or have a modular or mobile home put on the lot. if you demolish it you will have to keep the land surveyed (i think its every two years) and on record with the county so they keep counting it in the population growth. its a bit more expensive but a heck of a lot quicker to buy an old beat up shack on a lot from the 60's or 70's that you will demolish and rebuild to you specifications. the one thing to be sure about is weather the subdivision will or wont allow a mobile home to be placed on the lot. even if there is one there now,. be sure current zoning allows you to put a mobile home on the lot in the future. if plans change a ready to build lot with no wait is worth a premium in the keys!
Florida (in general) has some of the most restrictive building codes in the nation. The Florida Building Code ensures this, things get even more complicated once you get into local zoning.
This is not a state that is remotely friendly to owner-builders. There is an awful lot of land that is unbuildable in spite of existing right next door to a pretty new house.
just a FYI any existing home that is for sale is already permitted and counted in the county growth plan. this means you will automatically have a permit to build on that lot as you are just replaceing an existing building/home. no need to wait for a rogo permit. look for a lot with a older structure/mobile home on it.
like this one. 422 Lime Dr, Key Largo, FL 33037 - Home For Sale and Real Estate Listing - realtor.com®
you can buy the lot now and build later. you can even tear down the structure to drop the taxes a little until you want to build a place or have a modular or mobile home put on the lot. if you demolish it you will have to keep the land surveyed (i think its every two years) and on record with the county so they keep counting it in the population growth. its a bit more expensive but a heck of a lot quicker to buy an old beat up shack on a lot from the 60's or 70's that you will demolish and rebuild to you specifications. the one thing to be sure about is weather the subdivision will or wont allow a mobile home to be placed on the lot. even if there is one there now,. be sure current zoning allows you to put a mobile home on the lot in the future. if plans change a ready to build lot with no wait is worth a premium in the keys!
Thanks, but this ugly house is too expensive for me. Now I realize how difficult are regulations in Florida Keys and how everything goes there. On mainland this would cost maybe 30K, not 150.
I already gave up this idea. Just occasionally saw this thread popped up again, but I am no longer following this topic.
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