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If they wanted a very smooth, quiet, and powerful car they should have forgotten Lexus and Mercedes and lived with driving a Lincoln or Cadillac land barge?
Only Lincolns and Cadillacs were large cars ("land barges")?
What about Rolls-Royce? Or the Mercedes 600 Pullman?
For me, a luxury car should be large ("land barge" in your language); something which recent Lexus and Mercedes are not.
Fleet - until recently American "luxury cars" (L-M, Buick, Cadillac) all were very softly sprung cars and were good on the highway but not much fun to drive. The European (especially German) version of luxury was always different - firmer suspension, a bit smaller (especially in exterior dimensions), and quicker.
The original Lexus LS was hardly smaller than a Caddy - but vastly better. Yes - vastly better. The LS was beautifully finished, absolutely silent, and surprisingly fast. It was slightly smaller inside but still roomy. The Town Car of the day was obviously just a more equipped Grand Marquis. Still had fake wood, old folks dashboard, and minimal electronics.
I know some here really like the old Cadillacs, etc. but this board has a way higher number of car buyers in that group. Sales data proves it. Otherwise why is the Town Car and DTS such a laggard in sales?
A car doesn't have to be 18 feet long to be a luxury car. It doesn't have to float over the highway. It can take corners at reasonable speed.
Fleet - until recently American "luxury cars" (L-M, Buick, Cadillac) all were very softly sprung cars and were good on the highway but not much fun to drive. The European (especially German) version of luxury was always different - firmer suspension, a bit smaller (especially in exterior dimensions), and quicker.
Funny you should say that... I just drove my 76 Cadillac Limo. Even after owning it for 10 years, it is still very fun to drive. And yes, I have driven it at high speeds and on mountain roads. Also, there were fast Cadillacs 10 and 15 years ago... the Seville STS (I think that was the model; not too familiar with '90s Cads) could run 0-60 mph in about 6.8 seconds and the 1/4 mile at 14.7 second and top out at 140 mph.
The points you make about the European version of "luxury" is exactly why I prefer Cadillacs and Lincolns. I don't want a firm suspension on a luxury car; I want a soft one which prevents me from feeling the bumps in the road. If I wanted to feel the road, I would buy a sports car! And a bit smaller does not appeal to me; I like a big luxury car, not a compact-size car pretending to be a luxury car. I also don't like the stiff seats in Euro "luxury" cars... a luxury car should have a nice, soft, comfortable seat. And the fact that the Euro "luxury" cars have bucket seats.
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The original Lexus LS was hardly smaller than a Caddy - but vastly better. Yes - vastly better. The LS was beautifully finished, absolutely silent, and surprisingly fast. It was slightly smaller inside but still roomy. The Town Car of the day was obviously just a more equipped Grand Marquis. Still had fake wood, old folks dashboard, and minimal electronics.
No, that is your opinion that the Lexus was "vastly better." For instance, if driving with 6 people in the car and their luggage for a 200 hundred mile trip, the Town Car would be a much better choice. The Town Car is larger than the Grand Marquis, therefore, it is more than "just a more equipped Grand Marquis."
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I know some here really like the old Cadillacs, etc. but this board has a way higher number of car buyers in that group. Sales data proves it. Otherwise why is the Town Car and DTS such a laggard in sales?
Sales don't really matter. There are those who like and buy Cadillacs and Lincolns because they prefer those cars. Also, European cars don't have the "big car feel" and boulevard ride which the old Cadillacs and Lincolns have. I see Euro cars bounce over railroad tracks which are practically unnoticed when I drive my limo over them!
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A car doesn't have to be 18 feet long to be a luxury car. It doesn't have to float over the highway. It can take corners at reasonable speed
I agree a luxury car doesn't have to be 18 feet long. At least 18 and 1/2 feet! Or, even better, 19, 20 or 21 feet.
Fleet - clearly you and I disagree. I don't like soft cars. I don't like a car that floats up on a gentle bump in the road. I greatly prefer a firmer ride and I think it is equally comfortable on the highway. I think firmer seats are actually more comfortable on long trips because they provide better support.
As for the Lexus LS quality - the interior fit and finish makes the interiors of the Town Car and DTS look like they were assembled by the suspension guys, not craftsmen. Real wood, beautiful stitching, readable gauges, and solid switches.
The STS was a fine car and not a land barge. It also had a 32V engine.
Sales matter to the car companies. There are fewer and fewer people who like the old school luxury cars. Most people who carry six people use a SUV instead of a car with a front bench.
Cadillac has changed its fortunes by and large by rejecting the style of car you like. Lincoln is trying, but they are further behind GM now.
Fleet - clearly you and I disagree. I don't like soft cars. I don't like a car that floats up on a gentle bump in the road. I greatly prefer a firmer ride and I think it is equally comfortable on the highway. I think firmer seats are actually more comfortable on long trips because they provide better support.
Yes, we do disagree on that. Too bad I can't take you for a ride in my 21-foot long limousine. I have a feeling you would become a fan of that car very quickly!
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As for the Lexus LS quality - the interior fit and finish makes the interiors of the Town Car and DTS look like they were assembled by the suspension guys, not craftsmen. Real wood, beautiful stitching, readable gauges, and solid switches.
You can have your Lexus and Mercedes and whatever. They don't have the big car feel of a large Cadillac, nor do they have the boulevard ride. Don't forget about the abundant plastic in a Lexus (along with other modern cars). I suppose it has "quality" plastic!
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The STS was a fine car and not a land barge. It also had a 32V engine.
It was a fine car, but not a traditional Cadillac. A big minus for some Cadillac fans. And you didn't reply to my question... do you consider a Rolls-Royce and Mercedes 600 Pullman "land barges?" And how about an SUV (the ones big enough to carry 6 people and their luggage). "Land barges," too?
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Sales matter to the car companies. There are fewer and fewer people who like the old school luxury cars. Most people who carry six people use a SUV instead of a car with a front bench.
Actually, there are quite a few under-25 year old who like real (full-sized) Cadillacs. I just read a post from someone who is 16 years old and is looking to buy a '60s or '70s Cad.
As for a SUV instead of a car, some people like to travel in style! The big 18.5 to 21 foot Cadillacs had plenty of style!
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Cadillac has changed its fortunes by and large by rejecting the style of car you like. Lincoln is trying, but they are further behind GM now
I am glad that Cadillac seems to be building the type of car that sells nowadays. However, for many people, including myself, the last true Cadillac ended when the Fleetwood Brougham was discontinued after the 1996 model year.
Fleet - clearly you and I disagree. I don't like soft cars. I don't like a car that floats up on a gentle bump in the road. I greatly prefer a firmer ride and I think it is equally comfortable on the highway. I think firmer seats are actually more comfortable on long trips because they provide better support.
Then why do you like Lexus? Minus the ridiculously expensive LSF and ISF, Lexus is the supreme definition of softly sprung. Their vehicles bob over the roads, completely isolated, completely devoid of FUN. Lexus is the modern Caddy, if you will. But far uglier if you ask me!
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Originally Posted by hoffdano
As for the Lexus LS quality - the interior fit and finish makes the interiors of the Town Car and DTS look like they were assembled by the suspension guys, not craftsmen. Real wood, beautiful stitching, readable gauges, and solid switches.
The DTS is hardly junk inside. Im not a Caddy fan, but the DTS is quite a fine machine. And the new Caddies rival anything any German or Japanese can throw at them, and are definitely a lot more fun to drive than they used to be. The CTS-V is an amazing track machine, and a comfortable daily driver if you need it to be. Cant say the same for the ISF!!! Or any Lexus for that matter. POW!
Oh, Ill go one further and say that Jaguar, Aston Martin, etc, interiors make Lexus interiors look and feel like a Hyundai Accent.
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Originally Posted by hoffdano
Cadillac has changed its fortunes by and large by rejecting the style of car you like. Lincoln is trying, but they are further behind GM now.
Uhhhhh, Lincoln's image was never meant to convey sportiness. But if you like, the new MKT hauls some serious nuts with the new TT Ecoboost. Sure its far from a handling machine, but Lincoln buyers dont buy Lincolns to tear up the Nurburgring.
Fleet - until recently American "luxury cars" (L-M, Buick, Cadillac) all were very softly sprung cars and were good on the highway but not much fun to drive. The European (especially German) version of luxury was always different - firmer suspension, a bit smaller (especially in exterior dimensions), and quicker.
The original Lexus LS was hardly smaller than a Caddy - but vastly better. Yes - vastly better. The LS was beautifully finished, absolutely silent, and surprisingly fast. It was slightly smaller inside but still roomy. The Town Car of the day was obviously just a more equipped Grand Marquis. Still had fake wood, old folks dashboard, and minimal electronics.
I know some here really like the old Cadillacs, etc. but this board has a way higher number of car buyers in that group. Sales data proves it. Otherwise why is the Town Car and DTS such a laggard in sales?
A car doesn't have to be 18 feet long to be a luxury car. It doesn't have to float over the highway. It can take corners at reasonable speed.
You haven't driven the American luxury cars members of my family have owned over the years! As for the luxury cars that don't have to be 18+ feet, well they sure as hell are not much of one if they are not 18' ! Luxury is also a smooth ride.
Then why do you like Lexus? Minus the ridiculously expensive LSF and ISF, Lexus is the supreme definition of softly sprung. Their vehicles bob over the roads, completely isolated, completely devoid of FUN. Lexus is the modern Caddy, if you will. But far uglier if you ask me!
Good point; I forgot about that. Most magazine test of Lexus do say that their handling is okay, but not great. And they are definitely far uglier!
You haven't driven the American luxury cars members of my family have owned over the years! As for the luxury cars that don't have to be 18+ feet, well they sure as hell are not much of one if they are not 18' ! Luxury is also a smooth ride.
Yep, nothing quite like driving a really long car to get experience the luxury feel. As one enthusiast said, when describing such a car, the hood stretches out into the next county! I love cars with a long front and rear overhang.
Then why do you like Lexus? Minus the ridiculously expensive LSF and ISF, Lexus is the supreme definition of softly sprung. Their vehicles bob over the roads, completely isolated, completely devoid of FUN. Lexus is the modern Caddy, if you will. But far uglier if you ask me!
The DTS is hardly junk inside. Im not a Caddy fan, but the DTS is quite a fine machine. And the new Caddies rival anything any German or Japanese can throw at them, and are definitely a lot more fun to drive than they used to be. The CTS-V is an amazing track machine, and a comfortable daily driver if you need it to be. Cant say the same for the ISF!!! Or any Lexus for that matter. POW!
Oh, Ill go one further and say that Jaguar, Aston Martin, etc, interiors make Lexus interiors look and feel like a Hyundai Accent.
Uhhhhh, Lincoln's image was never meant to convey sportiness. But if you like, the new MKT hauls some serious nuts with the new TT Ecoboost. Sure its far from a handling machine, but Lincoln buyers dont buy Lincolns to tear up the Nurburgring.
The Lexus LS is definitely softer than a S-class or 7-series. But it is firmer than a DTS and Town Car. Yes it isolates you from the world via silence and smoothness. It isn't my kind of car - BTW.
But I disagree about the interior quality. Older Caddys use vinyl covered foam, fake wood, cheap chrome colored plastic, those clunky power door locks, etc.
The CTS-V is an awesome car. I would drive one. But that is nothing like your Fleetwood. The CTS-V is targeted at the BMW M5 buyer.
Lincoln's traditional image was never meant to convey sportiness. But if Lincoln continued to rely on Town Cars for its future it would die away. The new MKT is a step in the right direction. Ecoboost, AWD, and a firmer chassis.
You guys seem to forget this is a business. Who cares if a few 16 year olds want an old Caddy? Ford and GM need to sell tens of thousands of cars. That 16 year old wants a $5K car, not a $55K car.
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