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I actually think America is on the whole extremely similar culturally regardless of what state you're in, with only a few exceptions.
About 20 years ago, this wasn't the case. But with all the oversaturation of popular trends and marketing fads in pop culture today, I think sadly it is now true.
It is interesting, however, that Southern New England is actually in the "Individualist" column, whereas Northern New England is where you see "Moralism." Kind of undermines any perceptions of Massachusetts being a "preachy" state.
It sort of makes sense, when you consider Southern New England had a huge influx of Catholic immigrants, which resulted in the major cities developing "political machines" which subverted much of the old Yankee tradition of direct democracy.
Mind you, there's no clear lines anywhere on this, it's a gradation depending on how rural, and how much "old Yankee stock" an area has. I do have to say that while town meeting is still a thing in remote parts of Connecticut, I had never heard of it until I moved to Massachusetts.
The Northeast is a long-recognized geographic region, and there are at least some commonalities between all of its states, but I will agree that of course PA is more aligned with NY and NJ compared to New England.
I think that is the main problem. PA's been lumped with these states so long that people can't honestly imagine that Pennsylvania is very different from states like Massachusetts and has much more in common with states not in the Northeast.
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I still don't understand where you're going with this. The vast majority of states, Pennsylvania included, bans smoking in public places, workplaces and restaurants because it's common sense and a public health issue. Do you think speeding laws are also "preachy?" How about child abuse prevention laws?
There's a major difference between regulating innocuous behavior in privacy of one's home and controlling behavior that infringes on the rights of others. You seem to be conflating the two.
Eschaton nailed it in his post. It's what your taught in college if you take a state and local government course and breaks down the real differences between different states on there views of things. California is Moralistic due to transplants mostly from the Northeast and having the initiative and referendum for example. The only thing different about the list of Moral states in regards to New England was that all of New England except New Hampshire was considered to be moralistic in every moralistic state listing I've seen.
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Most people from PA definitely stay in the mid-Atlantic region to go to the beach (NJ, DE and MD). Of course some will go South, as some will go to to New England. I think you're also forgetting that it does depend on the area of the state you live in. People living in the eastern part of the state do have a closer proximity to top spots in New England (historically, wealthy Philadelphians would actually "summer" in Maine).
I believe you're in the South-Central part of the state, so I can imagine that trip may be less common. I think that's really where the difference in perception lies.
Here's an interesting Harper poll I found on the top vacation spots for PA folks:
"The Jersey Shore is Pennsylvania’s top vacation destination with 33% of the commonwealth selecting it as their favorite vacation spot. This is in part due to overwhelming support from the Philadelphia/Southeast region, which picked the Jersey Shore 53% of the time. Maryland’s Eastern Shore comes in second with 17% of respondents picking it as their favorite vacation location. The Pocono mountains–the only destination included in the poll inside of the commonwealth–came in at a close third with 16% of the vote. Other destinations that received votes in the survey include Upstate New York (10%) and Deep Creek Lake, Maryland (7%)."
Interestingly, no Southern or New England spots showed up in the results, but again, as a large state, you're always going to find some people going everywhere.
I said people from PA tend to head south for Vacation and I did list Maryland before as well as you have for vacation spots. So not seeing what I said was out of whack there. Note I'm not saying Maryland is Southern, Northern, Midatlantic, etc either. Just stating that it's south of PA and people from PA go there on Vacation.
CWA1984 is right, insofar as the terms "Northeastern" and "Midwestern" are inchoate except as geographic groupings. U.S. culture spread east to west. New England (and Upstate NY/the Northern Tier of PA) have more in common culturally with the Upper Midwest than the Mid-Atlantic. And the Mid-Atlantic, in turn, is more culturally similar to the Lower Midwest than to New England.
I think that is the main problem. PA's been lumped with these states so long that people can't honestly imagine that Pennsylvania is very different from states like Massachusetts and has much more in common with states not in the Northeast.
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Originally Posted by eschaton
CWA1984 is right, insofar as the terms "Northeastern" and "Midwestern" are inchoate except as geographic groupings. U.S. culture spread east to west. New England (and Upstate NY/the Northern Tier of PA) have more in common culturally with the Upper Midwest than the Mid-Atlantic. And the Mid-Atlantic, in turn, is more culturally similar to the Lower Midwest than to New England.
We agree there are differences, but I think it's the extent of those differences that are debatable. I do understand that historic migration patterns have had a lot to do with the cultures, and that the Mid-Atlantic is linked to the lower Midwest in that sense, but the historical and demographic aspects that create a common thread throughout the Northeast also should not be underestimated (e.g., higher rates of Catholicism/lower rates of evangelical Christianity, higher ethnic white identification of Irish/Italian, more significant Jewish population, strong local government, denser built environment, and colonial-era prominence). Not to mention topography and weather.
The "center of gravity" in Pennsylvania, in terms of commerce and population, is much closer to the Northeast Corridor than anywhere close to the Midwest. This continues to be the case as the southeast quadrant of the state is now receiving essentially all of Pennsylvania's growth -- so the cultural/commercial linkage with the rest of the Northeast is also growing with time.
We agree there are differences, but I think it's the extent of those differences that are debatable. I do understand that historic migration patterns have had a lot to do with the cultures, and that the Mid-Atlantic is linked to the lower Midwest in that sense, but I don't think the historical and demographic that create a common thread throughout the Northeast should be underestimated (e.g., higher rates of Catholicism/lower rates of evangelical Christianity, higher ethnic white identification of Irish/Italian, more significant Jewish population, strong local government, denser built environment, and colonial-era prominence). Not to mention topography and weather.
The problem with these definitions is many of them also pretty explicitly exclude portions of the Northeast outside of BoshWash - particularly Northern New England and much of Upstate NY.
IMHO BosWash is a thing, culturally speaking, and has knit together parts of New England, the Mid Atlantic, and the Upper South. But it's an overlay upon earlier, regional cultures.
The problem with these definitions is many of them also pretty explicitly exclude portions of the Northeast outside of BoshWash - particularly Northern New England and much of Upstate NY.
IMHO BosWash is a thing, culturally speaking, and has knit together parts of New England, the Mid Atlantic, and the Upper South. But it's an overlay upon earlier, regional cultures.
This makes sense, and I think it explains much of the disagreement.
About 20 years ago, this wasn't the case. But with all the oversaturation of popular trends and marketing fads in pop culture today, I think sadly it is now true.
20 years ago would be what, the '90s? It definitely wasn't quite as complete then, as most people weren't Internet users in 1995 so there were still regional music scenes and such. I was only a little kid then but watching TV clips from the '90s I notice more people had regional accents that stood out too.
Even then though I think it was already becoming more streamlined and the same. The California culture started to get imported via transplants leaving that state and Walmart was spread across the country making rural material culture more the same.
Uh, there are still "regional music scenes" today, it's no different from the 90s in that regard.
Commercially, regionally popular bands that charted in their home (or odd away) areas was pretty much kaput by the early 70s, though extremely comming before. Thanks, major labels, payola, and top 40/aor formatting!
I'm old enough to have travelled as an adult quite a bit throughout the 90s (through today), and I'm sorry, but even with "the internet" regional differences seem pretty unchanged to me overall. There are shifts, but as a whole, I don't believe things are diverging the way most people would like to believe (for whatever reason).
We agree there are differences, but I think it's the extent of those differences that are debatable. I do understand that historic migration patterns have had a lot to do with the cultures, and that the Mid-Atlantic is linked to the lower Midwest in that sense, but the historical and demographic aspects that create a common thread throughout the Northeast also should not be underestimated (e.g., higher rates of Catholicism/lower rates of evangelical Christianity, higher ethnic white identification of Irish/Italian, more significant Jewish population, strong local government, denser built environment, and colonial-era prominence). Not to mention topography and weather.
The "center of gravity" in Pennsylvania, in terms of commerce and population, is much closer to the Northeast Corridor than anywhere close to the Midwest. This continues to be the case as the southeast quadrant of the state is now receiving essentially all of Pennsylvania's growth -- so the cultural/commercial linkage with the rest of the Northeast is also growing with time.
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Originally Posted by eschaton
The problem with these definitions is many of them also pretty explicitly exclude portions of the Northeast outside of BoshWash - particularly Northern New England and much of Upstate NY.
IMHO BosWash is a thing, culturally speaking, and has knit together parts of New England, the Mid Atlantic, and the Upper South. But it's an overlay upon earlier, regional cultures.
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Originally Posted by Duderino
This makes sense, and I think it explains much of the disagreement.
Good posts.
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