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Old 01-29-2017, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Katy,Texas
3,496 posts, read 1,696,278 times
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The problem is places like Jersey City and Atlantic City are old cities and aren't really suburbs, even though people commute to them today. While this is a great thing to discuss This gives places like Houston and Dallas were most ornate their Suburban CBDs are within city limits a slight disadvantage. For example if Houston was just the inner loop with its 95 square miles it would be crushing this list with places like Uptown, The Energy Corridor, Memorial City, take in mind all of these areas are just skylines in one highway. Either that or we expand it to include most of Saint Louis County to match Houston's size. Seeing as Clayton to Downtown SL is about the same as Uptown to Downtown Houston. This is why suburbs that are just across the river or just outside the city limits in a city with an awkward shape or a small area doesn't really work. This is also why Bellevue for me is number one, but even Bellevue by Seattle at Houston size would be solidly in the city limits.
I suggest we do any Downtown that is more than 10 miles from the core cities Downtown and is not a legacy city.
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
2,958 posts, read 3,816,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare View Post
This is also why Bellevue for me is number one, but even Bellevue by Seattle at Houston size would be solidly in the city limits.
I suggest we do any Downtown that is more than 10 miles from the core cities Downtown and is not a legacy city.
By Houston size standards, nearly the entire Seattle region would be within city limits:

http://www.mapfrappe.com/?show=45630
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Katy,Texas
3,496 posts, read 1,696,278 times
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Exactly see how many of Houston's Suburban downtowns wouldn't count whatsoever. Even with those borders Houston still has a few smaller downtowns like The Woodlands, Galveston(Legacy City) and Sugar Land.
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Old 01-29-2017, 03:08 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
2,483 posts, read 2,222,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare View Post
The problem is places like Jersey City and Atlantic City are old cities and aren't really suburbs, even though people commute to them today. While this is a great thing to discuss This gives places like Houston and Dallas were most ornate their Suburban CBDs are within city limits a slight disadvantage. For example if Houston was just the inner loop with its 95 square miles it would be crushing this list with places like Uptown, The Energy Corridor, Memorial City, take in mind all of these areas are just skylines in one highway. Either that or we expand it to include most of Saint Louis County to match Houston's size. Seeing as Clayton to Downtown SL is about the same as Uptown to Downtown Houston. This is why suburbs that are just across the river or just outside the city limits in a city with an awkward shape or a small area doesn't really work. This is also why Bellevue for me is number one, but even Bellevue by Seattle at Houston size would be solidly in the city limits.
I suggest we do any Downtown that is more than 10 miles from the core cities Downtown and is not a legacy city.
While Houston and Dallas might be disadvantaged for the purposes of this thread, it's a city like St. Louis that's probably the most disadvantaged in real life. There's only about 6.5 miles separating downtown Clayton's eastern most edge from downtown St. Louis' western most edge if we were to draw a straight line (8.5 miles if we were to drive), but the city/county split means that St. Louis receives no benefit from Clayton in real life. Different emergency services, different court systems, different taxes, etc. Since St. Louis is an independent city, it's treated as if it's its own separate county. This means a separate entity like Clayton, the county seat of St. Louis County, gets to sit on St. Louis' border sucking business out of the city into its own downtown. At least in other metro areas a core city will still see some benefit from county services, but that doesn't happen in St. Louis. The city and county are also rather notorious for butting heads with each other rather than working together.

Also on an unrelated note, I will point out that that picture I posted is slightly deceiving in terms of skylines. The first high rises you start seeing in St. Louis proper aren't in downtown, but instead are in the Central West End on Forest Park's eastern edge. The downtown skyline starts 2-3 miles further east in the city.
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Old 01-29-2017, 03:40 PM
 
56,501 posts, read 80,803,243 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare View Post
The problem is places like Jersey City and Atlantic City are old cities and aren't really suburbs, even though people commute to them today. While this is a great thing to discuss This gives places like Houston and Dallas were most ornate their Suburban CBDs are within city limits a slight disadvantage. For example if Houston was just the inner loop with its 95 square miles it would be crushing this list with places like Uptown, The Energy Corridor, Memorial City, take in mind all of these areas are just skylines in one highway. Either that or we expand it to include most of Saint Louis County to match Houston's size. Seeing as Clayton to Downtown SL is about the same as Uptown to Downtown Houston. This is why suburbs that are just across the river or just outside the city limits in a city with an awkward shape or a small area doesn't really work. This is also why Bellevue for me is number one, but even Bellevue by Seattle at Houston size would be solidly in the city limits.
I suggest we do any Downtown that is more than 10 miles from the core cities Downtown and is not a legacy city.
Hence the reason I mentioned White Plains and New Rochelle, which are far enough away from NYC and are more standalone suburban cities with their own individual skylines/downtowns.
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Old 01-29-2017, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Chicago
5,853 posts, read 6,521,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightlysparrow View Post
Oak Park, Il
definitely good....but Evanston is far, far better.
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Old 01-29-2017, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Chicago
5,853 posts, read 6,521,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
While Houston and Dallas might be disadvantaged for the purposes of this thread, it's a city like St. Louis that's probably the most disadvantaged in real life. There's only about 6.5 miles separating downtown Clayton's eastern most edge from downtown St. Louis' western most edge if we were to draw a straight line (8.5 miles if we were to drive), but the city/county split means that St. Louis receives no benefit from Clayton in real life. Different emergency services, different court systems, different taxes, etc. Since St. Louis is an independent city, it's treated as if it's its own separate county. This means a separate entity like Clayton, the county seat of St. Louis County, gets to sit on St. Louis' border sucking business out of the city into its own downtown. At least in other metro areas a core city will still see some benefit from county services, but that doesn't happen in St. Louis. The city and county are also rather notorious for butting heads with each other rather than working together.

Also on an unrelated note, I will point out that that picture I posted is slightly deceiving in terms of skylines. The first high rises you start seeing in St. Louis proper aren't in downtown, but instead are in the Central West End on Forest Park's eastern edge. The downtown skyline starts 2-3 miles further east in the city.
I don't think there is any place comparable to a suburb creating a downtown that literally completes with the city's downtown as does Clayton; I see it as being unique in that respect.
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:21 PM
 
4,476 posts, read 2,659,202 times
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The small size of Downtown STL plays into that. But agreed.

Many cities have suburban areas that compete with their main downtowns with similar scale, but these generally don't coalesce into real suburban downtowns. The Denver Tech Center, Tyson's Corner, Silicon Valley (arguably) are in that category.

Some cities have their core retail districts in secondary downtowns a few miles from their main downtowns. Country Club Plaza in KC and Cherry Creek in Denver are like that, with the downtowns suffering as a result. But they're both in the core cities, not suburban.
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Washington State desert
5,527 posts, read 3,679,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays25 View Post
The small size of Downtown STL plays into that. But agreed.

Many cities have suburban areas that compete with their main downtowns with similar scale, but these generally don't coalesce into real suburban downtowns. The Denver Tech Center, Tyson's Corner, Silicon Valley (arguably) are in that category.

Some cities have their core retail districts in secondary downtowns a few miles from their main downtowns. Country Club Plaza in KC and Cherry Creek in Denver are like that, with the downtowns suffering as a result. But they're both in the core cities, not suburban.
True, and Buckhead in Atlanta is another strong one, but it is only "suburban" in feel, as it is within the City of Atlanta.

As for Bellevue, I base my opinion on a number of factors...how dense it is, how tall it is, how it looks as you drive into it. I've seen a lot of other "edge cities" up close and personal, including Irvine, CA, Bloomington, MN, Schaumburg, IL, Arlington and Alexandria, VA, etc. and I still maintain Bellevue is one of the top suburban downtowns in the country, (yes, I am backing down from "The Best" here ) Agree old cities that have sprung up can be impressive, but don't feel very suburban IMO.

Clayton, MO is impressive, but I note that with the exception of The Plaza at Clayton, there has not been a new high-rise there in decades. (Somebody correct me if I am wrong).
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Nashville TN, Cincinnati, OH
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Carmel IN is impressive and so is Clayton MO, Scottsdale AZ as well but that is more like its own city even thou it is a suburb of Phoenix
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