Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-23-2013, 01:30 PM
 
107 posts, read 181,796 times
Reputation: 257

Advertisements

Now, not then. What if we couldn't depend on references to Hitler to justify anything and everything?

Would the USA collapse? Its military at least? Internet message boards anyway?

This article offers food for thought..

Quote:
For 68 years, wars on poor countries have been justified by the pretended discovery of Hitler’s reincarnation. Each time it has turned out to be a false alarm. Every post-WWII war looks disastrous or at least dubious in retrospect to most people. And yet, the justification of the next war is always ready to hand, because the real, original Hitler remains alive in our memories, and he just might come back — who’s to say?

When World War II happened, there were no nukes, no satellites, no drones. There was no (or little) television, no internet, no WikiLeaks. There was no understanding of the tools of nonviolence. History contained no nonviolent overthrows of dictatorships, few examples of creative nonviolent resistance to tyranny, no teams of human shields, no Arab Spring, no Civil Rights movement, no overcoming of Apartheid, no bloodless revolutions in Eastern Europe, no peace studies programs, no expertise in conflict resolution, and no viable alternatives to war — much less the thousands of tools since devised, tested, and refined.

If Hitler Didn’t Exist » CounterPunch
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-23-2013, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,138 posts, read 22,815,703 times
Reputation: 14116
Hitler didn't invent the Nazi party.... If Adolph didn't take the job for whatever reason there would have been another charismatic nut-job doing the same things.

Nor were the Nazis the only power-hungry madmen trying to knock out the dying Weimar government and take control. They just happened to be the winners.

In other words... history would have played out mostly the same, only with different names.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-23-2013, 01:41 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
334 posts, read 716,501 times
Reputation: 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Hitler didn't invent the Nazi party.... If Adolph didn't take the job for whatever reason there would have been another charismatic nut-job doing the same things.

Nor were the Nazis the only power-hungry madmen trying to knock out the dying Weimar government and take control. They just happened to be the winners.

In other words... history would have played out mostly the same, only with different names.
This ^ The whole German/Aryan ubermensch philosophy and its related anti-antisemitism predates even Goethe and Wagner.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2013, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Type 0.73 Kardashev
11,110 posts, read 9,814,649 times
Reputation: 40166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Hitler didn't invent the Nazi party.... If Adolph didn't take the job for whatever reason there would have been another charismatic nut-job doing the same things.

Nor were the Nazis the only power-hungry madmen trying to knock out the dying Weimar government and take control. They just happened to be the winners.

In other words... history would have played out mostly the same, only with different names.
While Hitler did not invent the Nazi Party, he took it from just being another very small party in the political sea of post-WWI Germany to being the only fish in that pond.

It was only after Hitler joined the party and began drawing larger and larger crowds, and more and more members, that it began to gain any prominence whatsoever. Absent Hitler, the German Workers Party (or, DAP) founded by Anton Drexler (Remember him? I didn't think so.) would be but a minor footnote in history that only the occasional researcher would run across in dusty old records somewhere.

As you indicate, there were plenty of vehicles for other would-be dictators. However, Hitler possessed an exceptional skillset of assuming power, consolidating it, and then using it to take a country into a profoundly self-destructive war. That anyone else would come to power as hell-bent on war, with the audacity to attack through the Ardennes in 1940 when German generals were skeptical, to audaciously launch a full-scale attack on the USSR in 1941, to declare war on the United States and invade elsewhere, from Scandinavia to the Balkans to North Africa, is highly doubtful at best.

Hitler was not an interchangeable cog but a driver of events.

Absent Adolf Hitler, world history diverges radically from our own timeline in 1940.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2013, 01:00 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
8,396 posts, read 9,442,882 times
Reputation: 4070
Default What if there were no Hitler?

Then history textbooks around the world would need some serious editing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2013, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,138 posts, read 22,815,703 times
Reputation: 14116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
While Hitler did not invent the Nazi Party, he took it from just being another very small party in the political sea of post-WWI Germany to being the only fish in that pond.

It was only after Hitler joined the party and began drawing larger and larger crowds, and more and more members, that it began to gain any prominence whatsoever. Absent Hitler, the German Workers Party (or, DAP) founded by Anton Drexler (Remember him? I didn't think so.) would be but a minor footnote in history that only the occasional researcher would run across in dusty old records somewhere.

As you indicate, there were plenty of vehicles for other would-be dictators. However, Hitler possessed an exceptional skillset of assuming power, consolidating it, and then using it to take a country into a profoundly self-destructive war. That anyone else would come to power as hell-bent on war, with the audacity to attack through the Ardennes in 1940 when German generals were skeptical, to audaciously launch a full-scale attack on the USSR in 1941, to declare war on the United States and invade elsewhere, from Scandinavia to the Balkans to North Africa, is highly doubtful at best.

Hitler was not an interchangeable cog but a driver of events.

Absent Adolf Hitler, world history diverges radically from our own timeline in 1940.
Of course there is no way to know how it would have turned out with a different Fuhrer but you give Hitler way too much credit. He may have been the "face" of Nazism but it wasn't a 1 man show. If any of them deserve it the title "evil genius" it would be Goebbels; he may be remembered as Hitler's little b!#ch today but it was Goebbels who was a master of manipulation and actually got the German people on the Nazi's side.

Hitler was in fact, a giant screwup. He had some early successes as Fuhrer but his entire personal life and many, many tactical decisions were otherwised marked by failure after failure after failure.

Who knows... perhaps if one of the truly talented Nazis was sitting in the big chair making the important decisions at the time we'd be speaking German today. Hitler might have actually been "good" for the world in that respect.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2013, 12:49 PM
 
2,014 posts, read 1,649,540 times
Reputation: 2826
Default millions of hitlers

believe me there are millions of hitlers out there just waiting for the chance,back then even now,if adolf hitler had not been born another hitler would come by in about 5 minutes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-25-2013, 02:07 PM
 
Location: TOVCCA
8,452 posts, read 15,043,863 times
Reputation: 12532
There still was Mussolini and Stalin in WWII, and the other Nazis mentioned above, plus later, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam and a host of other villains to use as exemplars for cruelty, insane abuse of power, etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-26-2013, 11:35 AM
 
19,036 posts, read 27,599,679 times
Reputation: 20273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
While Hitler did not invent the Nazi Party, he took it from just being another very small party in the political sea of post-WWI Germany to being the only fish in that pond.

It was only after Hitler joined the party and began drawing larger and larger crowds, and more and more members, that it began to gain any prominence whatsoever. Absent Hitler, the German Workers Party (or, DAP) founded by Anton Drexler (Remember him? I didn't think so.) would be but a minor footnote in history that only the occasional researcher would run across in dusty old records somewhere.

As you indicate, there were plenty of vehicles for other would-be dictators. However, Hitler possessed an exceptional skillset of assuming power, consolidating it, and then using it to take a country into a profoundly self-destructive war. That anyone else would come to power as hell-bent on war, with the audacity to attack through the Ardennes in 1940 when German generals were skeptical, to audaciously launch a full-scale attack on the USSR in 1941, to declare war on the United States and invade elsewhere, from Scandinavia to the Balkans to North Africa, is highly doubtful at best.

Hitler was not an interchangeable cog but a driver of events.

Absent Adolf Hitler, world history diverges radically from our own timeline in 1940.
Don't be silly. One man taking party up to the power? By what means? Poor failed painter? Do you realize, how much MONEY it costs to pull such a stunt? And that's in a country, where NSDAP was a backwoods organization having no significance? And then, in matter of several weeks, it became well dressed, organized, dipping from basically unlimited financial source, and on every page? Hitler did all this? Or, someone chose his little socialist gig and promoted it? And if you want to know who, look into man, who coached him through his entire rise, formed his views, whispered in his ear this and that, and happened to be very close then American president and British Intelligence agent? Man who pumped his party with so much needed funds, supplied by Wall Street and London money bags?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-26-2013, 05:03 PM
 
Location: North of Canada, but not the Arctic
21,136 posts, read 19,714,475 times
Reputation: 25661

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:45 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top