Should Abortion be illegal? (Afghanistan, politician, terrorist, leader)

[Slowpoke_TX]

Originally Posted by rodentraiser

Again, are you advocating complete sexual abstinence from married couples who choose to not have children? And if so, do you really think that's going to work in real life? And what's with this "she"? Men have no say in having sex? They can't keep their zippers up, but women are supposed to be the ones to be responsible? What fairy tale world is that?

Your putting words into my mouth constitutes a strawman.


Why don't you try rebutting the points I actually stated?

[Slowpoke_TX]

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

Well, you can't kill something that isn't alive

A fetus exhibits the most fundamental life process, cellular respiration, yet you claim it isn't alive.

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

even if God considered abortion equal to murder (which he doesn't) then the doc could just ask for forgiveness and salvation just like YOU said for other types of murder and waltz right into heaven.

Wrong. Part of salvation is repentance - turning away from sin.

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

The harm applies directly to the woman, not the fetus.

The text never states whether "if there is serious injury" applies only to the woman or only to the baby, thus, an intellectually honest analysis shows that it must apply equally to both.

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

Yes, exactly, that illegitimate fetus will be expelled BY GOD's ORDERS from drinking the bitter water. If God had a such problem with the killing a fetuses, wouldn't He protect the sanctity of its life and have another way to expose an adulterer?

The issue here is marital infidelity, not the killing of unborn children. God, being the Creator of life, may end it if He so chooses. However, God does not permit humans to end life unless the person has taken innocent life.

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

It does not say "God enacted cellular respiration and he became a living man" it specifically says "BREATHES into the nostrils."

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

So it is only metaphorical or literal when it fits your agenda? Here we have a verse that says God's spirit MADE him, but his breath gives me LIFE. So this guy has two spirits, since according to you God's breath is just his spirit? Or in just this one verse God's breath is literally giving life?

Job 33:4-“The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

Another example of God breathing life, he even says it twice in this one:

Ezekiel 37: 5&6- “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I shall lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”


But that's not what it says. Again, you are changing it to fit your ideals.

As long as you insist on literalism, you'll never be able to understand Scripture. Are you a member of some fundamentalist denomination?

And do you seriously think that God has an actual breath, that He actually exhales? If so, then you seem to think that God is no greater than Baal. Remember how Elijah taunted the prophets of Baal in 1 Kings 18 by insinuating that Baal wasn't responding to their prayers because he had to do temporal things like sleep and go to the bathroom?

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

"Thou shall not kill" has nothing to do with abortions. Jesus talks about "your brother or your sister" he does not say "or your fetus."

"Thou shalt not kill" was given by God before He came to Earth in human form as Jesus. Furthemore, neither God nor Jesus said anything that would exempt an unborn baby from the protection that this Commandment affords.

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

Secondly it only applies to the unlawful killing of someone. God gave us free will to make decisions and create laws and govern ourselves, last I checked abortion was legal, so even if you still want to call a fetus a person (which it's not) removing it from the womb is legal so it still doesn't apply.

You seriously believe that God allows man to defeat God's law by enacting his own law?

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

Oh and in the new covenant, we are not supposed to go to carnal war, only spiritual, so wherever you said murder in the name of war or via the death penalty is no longer cool with God.

Murder in the name of war? WTF are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

Well it is not considered a person in any medical or legal textbook either. According to man's law, you are not alive until you have been expelled from the womb and taken a breath.

There, I fixed it for ya.

God's law doesn't say "Thous shalt not kill whatever man deems alive."

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

Well, sometimes aborting a fetus is the best choice for that fetus.

OK, tell me how killing something (that is not suffering) is better than letting it live. This oughta be good...

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

God believes in a life of quality over a life just for the sake of living, so if I'm very poor or an addict or in abusive relationship or am pregnant due to trauma or know my baby will be born with a fatal or detrimental deformity, then aborting the fetus rather than subjecting a child to a life of trauma and torture is the better option.

Which Scripture says that?

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

Nope. No brain function, no feelings, no rights.

So now something has to have feelings in order to be alive and to have rights? We have rights because we have feelings?? lmfao, you're too much

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

You don't want women to have abortions, yet you refuse to provide any assistance to access birth control which PREVENTS ABORTIONS, by preventing pregnancy.

You're assuming that I am obligated to pay for birth control or pay for abortions for women I haven't slept with, and in so doing, you're also excusing these women of any responsibility for their own actions.

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

You also don't want to help the child after she's been forced to have it.

Go re-read post #67 where I said

Of course I have considered adopting, but as a single man working 70 hours per week on the night shift, I'm unable to give a child the amount and quality of time he or she would need and deserve. So for now, I donate money to adoption agencies, and I will begin mentoring or fostering once I retire.

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

Abstinence DOES NOT WORK.

It works 100% of the time it is put into practice.

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

So you can choose to either have taxes pay for birth control so it's free or you can keep perpetuating the need for abortions by denying women access to it. Which do you choose?

I choose to reject your false dichotomy. I shouldn't have to pay for what some woman I don't even know chooses to do with her body, especially when I had no input into the decision.

[CatTX]

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

Because killing is wrong, the death penalty is right. God commanded governments to impose the death penalty upon those who take innocent life.

But if killing is wrong, killing those who take another life is also wrong. That is simply revenge. And if vengeance is God's, then God should kill those he disagrees with instead of making his people commit the sin of murder.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

The decision is not whether a life is innocent, but whether one wishes to forfeit one's innocence by committing murder.

Then those who execute criminals would be forfeiting their innocence by committing murder.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

God never said that it's OK for humans to commit those acts. As I stated in the previous post, God would be the one causing such acts to occur as punishment for violating his commands.

How is this done? If you act according to the bible, people who commit adultery should be stoned. People who speak against God (like atheists) should be killed. It is illegal to kill anyone because of their religious beliefs or because they commit adultery. Christians cannot act as instruments for God's punishment unless they are willing to go to prison for a really long time.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

It's not OK, which renders the rest of your conditional statement false, but I'll address the remaining issues for the sake of clarity.

And how can a fetus be killed if it's not alive, as the pro-abortion crows likes to claim?

A fetus is as alive as other cells in a woman's body that cannot live independently of her.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

The problem with abortion is that it ends an innocent life.

The bible doesn't address fetuses as alive.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

No, abortion is not sanctioned by God for believers or non-believers.

Have not been able to find any anti-abortion verses in the bible.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

N/A, because the preceding conditional statement is false. Furthermore, the objection to abortion is to the practice of abortion in general, regardless of the faith of the woman or the doctor. IOW, Christians don't oppose abortion because another Christian might have one (or perform one), but because the abortion itself violates one of the Ten Commandments.

The ten commandments and 7 deadly sins are impossible to abide by. They are constantly violated by just about everyone (including most Christians).

[infocyde]

Originally Posted by JackParow

this is all hypothetical other then *Scientifically it is a human being in development.
None of your business, its not your fetus.

The same logic applies to me randomly walking up and killing a stranger. None of your business, its not your fetus. Because a fetus is just a stage of human development. But a "fetus" is every bit as human as a stranger walking down the street. And rights should apply to both. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

The "fetus" (love how terms make it easier to kill...er excuse me "terminate") is not just a piece of the mother's body. It is also is it's own being with rights.

[johngolf]

I say the woman who is pregnant should be able to control the situation and be safe with her decision.

[Leisesturm]

I spent the first 1/3 of my life living in a very poor Brooklyn ghetto, and all my contacts, relatives and lovers were poor and marginalized. Although poor, my family is quite upwardly mobile. The church I attended was exactly the same way. One way or another I have been witness to or heard first hand of dozens of abortion procedures of friends, lovers and close acquaintances.

During the second third of my life I moved to the Midwest and because of an interracial relationship, lived in a wealthy suburb with an exclusively upscale population. It had never occurred to me to think that any other kind but the poor women who looked like me back in the ghetto, might need to have abortions. I met several women who had had at least one, and in one case two. These are women with degrees from Universities you have heard of. Women that went right from college into jobs paying $80K/yr. Smart. Pretty. Successful. One very close friend had an abortion during the first year of her marriage. It was just too soon in their married life to start on parenting. They have four children today. They have been married at least 25 years. Had they kept that first child it is an open question as to whether their marriage would have survived. We are talking about people whose parents are in the 1% here.

Abortion will never go away for the wealthy. The hypocrites in this thread talk about "hookers and tramps" but hookers and tramps don't have huge numbers of children OR abortions. Hypocrites want to force poor women into serving life sentences for the crime of fornication. Seems fair on its face, but... is it? But more to the point, if there were no safe and legal abortion and no State welfare, these poor, unloved children WOULD wind up in State criminal custody ($$$) or as military conscripts where they can participate in America's program of International Dominance. And best of all, with the dismantlement of all Social Programs there would be no tax revenue needed by the IRS. All the money hypocrites make would go into their investment portfolios.

There are words to the effect of "heaping up wrath against the day of anger". Hypocrites should know those words well even if they do not acknowledge that this is what they are doing with regards to people that do not look like them. When hypocrites mob the small private clinics that provide abortions to the nice young women that just had an unfortunate circumstance, instead of the downtown Planned Parenthood Center, I will take back what I have said. When hypocrites start hiring Americans that do not look like them in proportion to their percent of the U.S. population I will take back what I have said.

[infocyde]

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

Please ask a fetus how it feels about possibly being aborted. Let me know what it says.

A fetus is NOT a person. Just because it will one day be a human doesn't make it one. A caterpillar will one day be a butterfly, it is a butterfly in development, but it is NOT a butterfly.

No, spiritually it is not a soul. The Bible is very specific about this. A person is not alive and does not have a soul until he/she takes a breath. That is God breathing life into them and THAT is when the soul enters the body. It leaves with their last breath.

The third statement is the same as your first.

As I stated earlier, 90% of women do not regret having an abortion, they do not carry grief or ill feelings with them afterwards. The few that do had mental illnesses such as depression prior to their abortion.

If you were aborted, you would have no idea that it happened or that your fetal self ever existed, so that's a pointless statement.

The baby (I won't use the term "fetus" because that is just a linguistic trick to make it easier to kill a human being in development) can't speak with voice, but as they are being executed they often recoil, scream at some stages, have elevated heart rates and make movements that indicate fear, they are communicating that they do not want to die.

The Bible does talk about breathing life into each of us, but it also talks how God knits us together in the womb.

Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

You forgot that verse. Something tells me you miss a lot of a lot of Bible verses when you interpret God's word.

90% don't suffer depression...Maybe lies become truth if you whisper them to yourself often enough. My experience leads me to conclude that this number is false. But I believe in your core being you knew this was false already....

As to my existence, I've done both good and bad. I can't say the world would be the same, but I do know that the good I have done would have been missed if the world was roughly the same.

[infocyde]

Originally Posted by CatTX

Yes, let's make abortion illegal or let's force women to jump through hoops designed to string them along til the pregnancy is too far advanced to abort. And then we can go back to quacks with coat hangers and herbs. Because the sanctity of life is restricted to the fetus and if the evil **** who couldn't keep her legs closed dies, well, that'll teach her!

The millions of babies who's lives where cut short are willing to take that risk. Their lives matter too.

[infocyde]

Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny

Yes, because women, especially poor women go around begging men to impregnate them .

Maybe if those baby daddies stuck around, they wouldn't need to "take money from your pocket." The men say they'll be there, but a lot of them end up leaving, so now the woman is stuck alone with a child to feed. Maybe we should just let them all starve!

These are tragic stories, but this possibility must be impressed unto the youth. To men, responsibility. To Women, that men lie. There are also other solutions than abortion.

[infocyde]

Originally Posted by PyroZach

I'm a Republican and I do not believe that abortion should be illegal. As a male I look at it from a perspective that I can never get pregnant and will never have any idea on what it is like to have a baby. No I do not like abortion at all and actually find it disgusting though I do not believe banning abortion entirely would have a positive effect on society. If we banned abortion our population would explode, women who become pregnant would have to result to having an abortion in an unregulated environment and many women who do get pregnant cannot afford to keep and take care of a baby forcing them to place there baby in foster care. I do plan on running for state office though when the issue of abortion comes up I would plan on abstaining from a vote since I believe that as a male I do not have a right to regulate a women's body.

It is not just an issue of the woman's body, a baby is a human being. As to the population exploding, you mean we might have enough workers to support social security, medicare, and other programs that the baby boomer (pre-abortion on demand) demographic bubble will bankrupt society with unless they are cut off?