Should Abortion be illegal? (injection, conspiracy, Brown, companies)

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Originally Posted by HappyNewMe

1. Would you yourself consider adopting one? Or two or three? Or leave it all up to theoretical saviors?
2. There are ALREADY thousands of unwanted babies and children waiting to get adopted... and there seems to not be enough adoptive parents to go around

Actually, there are multi-year waits and list for potential adoptive parents. This is either ignorance or a lie. I know as I'm in the process of adopting and know many who are doing or have done the same. It is not an easy go down to baby mart process.

Foster care, that is a different story.

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Originally Posted by TurquoiseOne

I'm old enough to remember life before Roe v. Wade.

No one wants a wire coat hanger in their uterus.

I remember life after Roe v. Wade

BlackGenocide.org | L.E.A.R.N. Northeast

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Originally Posted by kell490

I had a friend who had an abortion she was an alcoholic who was living with her alcoholic boyfriend I could not see how the both of them could even conceive they drank so much. It was the right thing to do she got her self sterilized right after that she knew that there was know way for her to raise a child it would have been child abuse to do that. She had enough sense to do the right thing in my opinion. She didn't have any money had to use plan parenthood if that had not been available to her she could not have had it done. I agree abortion should be legal and free along with birth control. Religious freedom doesn't give you the right to tell others what to do it's always the same "Pro-Life" people who are demanding others live the way they do.

Adoption...before Russia cut off the USA from adopting, thousands of babies came from Alcoholic parents there (it is systemic) who found good homes and are living productive lives.

The baby is a human. It has rights. It isn't just part of the woman's body.

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Originally Posted by WeHa

Nope, abortion is and should be legal. It's a private medical decision that a woman has a right to make.

As for the argument that a fetus is a living person, if that's true then take it out of uterus and let it breath and live.

If it can't survive outside my body, it's not really alive.

So any person who is on a medical device after an accident to keep them alive should be unplugged at the will of the device creator at will?

You are skewing logic so you can support and possibly make the choice to kill a human being in the womb. The baby is more than part of the woman's body, and if let to continue to live most will breath just fine on their own soon.

[Leisesturm]

Why is there so much religious psychobabble in this thread? It isn't in the Religion and Spirituality forum. Why does abortion always wind up being a Fundamentalist Christian target? I am not certain of the exact number of pregnancies terminated last year but I am certain our military and law enforcement killed over 100 times as many innocent civilians as collateral damage of war activities or accidental and/or malicious law enforcement activities. Why aren't Fundie Churches picketing Recruiting Stations or Military Bases?

I would not go as far as to say that a fetus is not alive. It clearly is. But is it sentient at three weeks? Is it conscious at three weeks? Absolutely not. Not even at 8 weeks. You know what's criminal? It is refusing to allow the over the counter sale of a single pill morning after contraceptive. The present (and hard fought) morning after prophylactic is a two drug affair with a mandatory video before the second pill... if you are taking a morning after drug there is not even a fetus. At that point its called a zygote.

Only in the fevered imaginings of literalist Fundamentalist hypocrites could a 48 hour old human zygote be worthy of the full protection of the United States Constitution. And America is the only developed country where these views constitute a moral majority.

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Originally Posted by Yakscsd

NO, of course not. That's just silly religious rhetoric. Case closed. *drops mic*

Because you said so...should I call you God? Führer? Glorious Leader? The most high? Big Brother? Because you have with a drop of a mic decided a huge topic hotly debated that affects the lives of millions is over. You are indeed powerful. I'm in awe of your power.

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Originally Posted by deeken

Abortion should be legal. There are 7 billion people on this planet and we don't need any more unwanted kids on this planet that could end up being murderers, drug addicts, pedophiles, terrorist, etc. Just take a look at Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and Iraq. A typical family there is anywhere from 4-10 kids. How many of them is there a future for?

For all those loud mouths that feel its immoral to abort a fetus why don't you adopt an unwanted kid or two or three? You sure as hell don't want to deal with these unwanted kids but have the nerve to tell a woman what to do with hers?

Wouldn't a "ZERO" population strategy be the pest possibility to end the risk of people becoming bad? No? Then who gets to decide who lives and dies? You? The mother?

What about the "fetus" (it is a baby, that is a term that just helps objectify a human being into something that isn't so they can feel less guilty about killing them). Do babies have any rights? If not why not? Why do you have any rights? Because you are awesome?

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Originally Posted by hothulamaui

abortion needs to remain legal. don't want one? don't have one. simple. before Roe V Wade women died from back alley and self inflicted abortions. no woman in America should be forced to remain pregnant against her own wishes. nor should she be forced to carry to term, labor, deliver and either raise or give a child up for adoption

And now millions die at due to on demand abortion. But you don't care do you?

BlackGenocide.org | L.E.A.R.N. Northeast

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Originally Posted by Ellwood

I believe in a woman's choice to choose. Not the politicians (mostly male) or male dominated Supreme Court. Her body, her choice.

A baby is still part of the woman's body after birth. Her genes, her cells. Yet we don't allow people (yet anyway) to randomly decide to kill birthed humans when they no longer "want them".

Babies are humans in development. If you randomly decide they don't have rights and can be killed at will what is to prevent other groups, including adults, to have society suddenly decide for whatever convoluted reason that they have no rights either and should be killed. Seen it before...

[Pennies4Penny]

Originally Posted by gouligann

Yes, I certainly agree that it should be her right 100%, but I think this practice of using abortion after abortion for birth control is disgusting and it can't be good for the health of her uterus to have so many.

That doesn't happen. Only half of the women who have one abortion will get a second.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

That is correct. A women who is saved will go to Heaven, regardless of whether or not she's had an abortion.



Because killing is wrong, the death penalty is right. God commanded governments to impose the death penalty upon those who take innocent life.




The decision is not whether a life is innocent, but whether one wishes to forfeit one's innocence by committing murder.




God never said that it's OK for humans to commit those acts. As I stated in the previous post, God would be the one causing such acts to occur as punishment for violating his commands.


It's not OK, which renders the rest of your conditional statement false, but I'll address the remaining issues for the sake of clarity.

And how can a fetus be killed if it's not alive, as the pro-abortion crows likes to claim?



The problem with abortion is that it ends an innocent life.



No, abortion is not sanctioned by God for believers or non-believers.


N/A, because the preceding conditional statement is false. Furthermore, the objection to abortion is to the practice of abortion in general, regardless of the faith of the woman or the doctor. IOW, Christians don't oppose abortion because another Christian might have one (or perform one), but because the abortion itself violates one of the Ten Commandments.

Where specifically in the Bible does it say that the practice of abortion is a sin. "Thou shall not kill" does not cover it, because even though God says that, He also describes dozens of specific scenarios in which murder (and other sins) is involved with specific consequences. If God is so concerned with the sanctity and protection of fetuses, WHY IS THERE NO SPECIFIC VERSE that describes abortions and the proper punishment for it??

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

A fetus exhibits the most fundamental life process, cellular respiration, yet you claim it isn't alive.

The legal definition of a person being alive is to be expelled from the womb and to take a breath. If a baby is expelled and never takes a breath, it was never alive, hence the word "stillborn."

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

Wrong. Part of salvation is repentance - turning away from sin.

So I can preform 1000 abortions, then on my death bed, say sorry God that was wrong, then go to heaven?

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

The text never states whether "if there is serious injury" applies only to the woman or only to the baby, thus, an intellectually honest analysis shows that it must apply equally to both.

Nope wrong. Firstly you yourself say YOU can't verify it, so you are just assuming, but theological study, by theologians agree that the harm applies to the woman.

[QUOTE/]My analysis of available English language reference works indicates that most commentators see Exodus 21:22 as dealing with a miscarried fetus, a stillborn child. From the 1844 commentary of Thomas Scott 3 through the 1986 work of Everett Fox,4 dozens of biblical scholars have held this view. Most suggest that the passage reveals three facts: the miscarriage results from an injury incurred; the offender should pay a fine to compensate for the loss of the fetus; and only if the woman herself suffers serious, permanent injury or death does the lex talionis (the law of retribution) apply.
Assuming that only a fine is required as compensation for the loss of the child, two Roman Catholic commentaries5 conclude: "The fetus is not regarded as a person, but if the woman dies the lex talionis is applied." 6 Paul D. Simmons, a Protestant, says: "The woman has full standing as a person under the covenant, the fetus has only a relative standing, certainly inferior to that of the woman." 7 This view is not merely a modern notion.
David M. Feldman in his Birth Control in Jewish Law argues that, based on this passage, the ancient Talmudic commentators clearly distinguished between the miscarriage of a fetus and the death of its mother.8 Even though at birth a child is considered to be a living soul, if it dies during the first 30 days no funeral services are held because the infant is not considered to have existed.9[/quote]

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

The issue here is marital infidelity, not the killing of unborn children. God, being the Creator of life, may end it if He so chooses. However, God does not permit humans to end life unless the person has taken innocent life.

But God is clearly okay with killing the fetus. Why not kill the woman, it was her sin? If God was so insistent that we protect fetuses at all costs, he would make her give birth full term then IDK, have her stoned to death or something

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

As long as you insist on literalism, you'll never be able to understand Scripture. Are you a member of some fundamentalist denomination?

And do you seriously think that God has an actual breath, that He actually exhales? If so, then you seem to think that God is no greater than Baal. Remember how Elijah taunted the prophets of Baal in 1 Kings 18 by insinuating that Baal wasn't responding to their prayers because he had to do temporal things like sleep and go to the bathroom?

Yes, because Fundamentalists are huge advocators of abortions lol. If I believed that God literally breathed air into our nostrils to make us alive, I would have been waiting for him to float down from the sky and blow into my babies' nostrils as soon as they popped out of me.

God's breath is the wind, the air around us, what we breathe in through our nostrils. Fetuses can not breath in God's breath from inside the womb, that is why you are not alive until you are expelled from the womb and BREATH in His breath, which is the air around us.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

"Thou shalt not kill" was given by God before He came to Earth in human form as Jesus. Furthemore, neither God nor Jesus said anything that would exempt an unborn baby from the protection that this Commandment affords.

But He never said anything that specifically INCLUDES them either.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

You seriously believe that God allows man to defeat God's law by enacting his own law?

Then why did He give us free will to make our own choices? If He didn't want us governing ourselves, He would have made us robots. Only He can judge us when the time comes.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

Murder in the name of war? WTF are you talking about?

Any war.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

There, I fixed it for ya.

God's law doesn't say "Thous shalt not kill whatever man deems alive."

No sense here??

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

OK, tell me how killing something (that is not suffering) is better than letting it live. This oughta be good...

Which Scripture says that?

It will be born into suffering. And you don't think a baby suffers from developing in the womb of an addict?

Three examples for you:

"If a man begets a hundred children, and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but he does not enjoy life's good things, and also has no burial, I say that an untimely birth is better off than he. For it comes into vanity and goes into darkness, and in darkness its name is covered; moreover it has not seen the sun or known anything; yet it finds rest rather than he." (Ecclesiastes 6:3-5)

"Or why was I not as a hidden untimely birth, as infants that never see the light? There the wicked cease from troubling, and there the weary are at rest. There the prisoners are at ease together; they hear not the voice of the taskmaster. The small and the great are there, and the slave is free from his master." (Job 3:16-19)

"The wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth, speaking lies. They have venom like the venom of a serpent. ... Let them vanish like water that runs away, like grass let them be trodden down and wither. Let them be like the snail which dissolves into slime, like the untimely birth that never sees the sun." (Psalms 58:3-8)

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

So now something has to have feelings in order to be alive and to have rights? We have rights because we have feelings?? lmfao, you're too much

It is part of the human spirit to have emotions.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

You're assuming that I am obligated to pay for birth control or pay for abortions for women I haven't slept with, and in so doing, you're also excusing these women of any responsibility for their own actions.

As a person who is strongly opposed to abortions, yes you should do what is necessary to help prevent them. Walk the walk. It doesn't matter if you even know them, Jesus says to help anyone who needs it and considering that Jesus spent a lot of time with prostitutes, I am sure He would be in favor of providing help and birth control to even the most sexually promiscuous, especially if it meant preventing abortions (even though Jesus never talks about abortions). How you treat "the least of these" is how you treat Jesus.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

It works 100% of the time it is put into practice.

But as I stated and as history has shown people are NOT going to be abstinent. That is a scapegoat talking point so you can make judgments (thou shall not judge) without taking actions and a faith with no deeds is no faith at all. So your choice, free birth control or abortions?

Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX

I choose to reject your false dichotomy. I shouldn't have to pay for what some woman I don't even know chooses to do with her body, especially when I had no input into the decision.

Yet you have the right to tell her what to do with her body?? Interesting.

Again Jesus does not say only help your friends, He says to help ALL your brothers and sisters.

I am still waiting for a specific verse that details abortions/removal of a fetus, how it is a sin and the proper punishment for it, because if it is that important to God, He would have been specific about it, just like he details all other sins.