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Fact: we have no idea if it is the Program that saved those lives because there is NO DATA. There is no evidence that those people would not have remained sober or clean without the program. There is no evidence that those same people could not have come clean walking in to any church or any other program.
There is more wrong with the program than right. The courts mandating 12 step to violent offenders is proving to be a reoccurring problem (google "orange papers"). The group tells people they have to keep coming back or they will die in the gutter. The group chants biblical verse at the end of each meeting despite promising it is not religious. The older members prey on younger members (google "13th step"). The notion that there MUST be a higher power is damaging to those who do not subscribe to giving away that level of control. There are no professionals available within the group, and they in fact discourage members from seeking help outside of the Program as it is "the only answer" and you are a failure if you don't do it their way (google "cult").
Bill Wilson believed in using LSD and played with a Ouija board to find spiritual answers. He was also a sex addict, despite his deep, religious beliefs - the same beliefs he founded the program on (google "oxford group"). He exchanged one addiction for many others, most importantly, religious fanaticism that gave us AA.
Self control is lost if the person is brainwashed into believing they can only achieve it with the help of a higher power and the support of other addicts who tell them to use a 75 year old treatment plan laid out by another mentally unstable addict who made a fortune off the sales of his Big Book . Most people enter those rooms with more issues than their addiction, and that is how they end up dying - not because they didn't do their steps, but because they aren't capable of tackling addiction without legitimate intervention that is beyond the scope of a bunch of endlessly-recovering addicts.
If it works, that's great. But it is NOT the only answer and it should never be mandated by our courts or insurance companies who pay for "treatment" by residential facilities who use the 12 Step model, because it is not any different than yoga or meditation.
I think that AA and other 12 Step Programs are cultish. I really do. They are not run by professionals and their success rate is 2%. That's right. 2%.
Honestly, I have lost more friends to AA, than I have to drugs or alcohol. Good people who may have over done it, now and then, but were funny, a little off beat, in a good way, who have been transformed into pedantic, AA know it alls, spouting bumper sticker slogans and pointing fingers at everyone.
Friends and family members becoming cult members - that's kind of a loss also.
I never knew those thinks about Bill W., tcmtom. But, they are disturbing.
I think that AA and other 12 Step Programs are cultish. I really do. They are not run by professionals and their success rate is 2%. That's right. 2%.
Honestly, I have lost more friends to AA, than I have to drugs or alcohol. Good people who may have over done it, now and then, but were funny, a little off beat, in a good way, who have been transformed into pedantic, AA know it alls, spouting bumper sticker slogans and pointing fingers at everyone.
Friends and family members becoming cult members - that's kind of a loss also.
I never knew those thinks about Bill W., tcmtom. But, they are disturbing.
I grew up in a religious, supposedly straight-laced area and have never met many militant teetotaler types. I may not be completely convinced by AA, but I am not against it.
As to the OP's original question, as someone who grew up literally surrounded by addicts and the profound dysfunction they leave in their wake, I must say I am often relieved when they die and get it over with. I know that sounds harsh but after a truly bizarre childhood and upbringing and the psychic scars to show for it that haunt me to this very day I can tell you that I reach a point where for me the person is already dead for all intents and purposes, just taking up oxygen and playing out the string. I can testify to the truth of that old saw that addicts will lie, cheat, and steal from anyone at any time in order to get their fix. I have personally watched my brother steal his dying fathers pain medicine and his mothers atm card in search of a temporary fix. I have watched acquaintances within minutes of their fathers death sneak off with his wallet while nobody was looking to grab whatever cash and credit cards they could still use before anybody noticed. After you see this over and over and over you get sorta tired of it.
Am I wrong to think 'just die already and stop ruining everyones life you can?' After you see multiple people manipulate the system and their familys' emotions to their own end for years or decades you get sorta tired of it, or at least I do.
In this country addiction has become big business and I have watched so many people spend years on the jail, court, rehab, ER, AA, etc. merry-go-round can you blame me for being critical of it. Personally, I think people should be banned from rehab after their third attempt. After that it is simply a waste of time and usually someone else's resources that someone who may actually benefit from it could take that spot. I frequently hear that we must simply spend more money on tax payer funded rehab treatment, etc. Well, what about the millions and millions, or probably billions by now that went up in smoke keeping people alive just so they can die face down in the gutter anyway, with absolutely nothing to show for it except for grief and misery all around. My opinion is we are not doing ourselves or the addict any favors by practicing this reverse Darwinism in the extreme.
I know I sound bitter but you must know that I have my reasons. Someone mentioned the 'dry drunk' syndrome-that is how I would describe myself. After watching many relatives drink and drug themselves to death to escape crippling depresssions and anxiety I have chosen to never drink or use drugs but I am subject to the same afflictions. I tell people that the old saw about nature or the environment doesn't really matter in my case because I got screwed on both end of that one. All us sober people can do is carry on one day at a time (I'll get to that controversy in a second lol) and try to be a good person and help out our fellow man as best as we can.
As to AA and 12 step programs, I agree that they can be a little cultish to those inclined but they have helped many and even though I don't attend any, they are free and profoundly well intentioned and life savers for untold numbers of people. I reserve 95% of my contempt for the big business of rehab in general and the gargantuan amount of money spent on rehab centers fed by well intentioned judges, probation officers, familys, etc. who are co-dependant themselves on the institutional level and the pepetual merry-go-round that pays their salaries while they tell the let's face it because many of them are "criminals" in fact if not just in practice, that it is never their fault because they have a "disease" and they just can't help themselves, so no need to take responsibility or anything, God forbid that! Now that we have a convenient billing code you are all set and let the never ending merry go round begin again.
OK, sorry for the long rant but if you had PTSD like I believe I do from all this you might just be a little bitter too if you walked a mile in my shoes.
The disease model and Twelve Step model is antiquated. There is no science, only snake oil. There is no evidence, only anecdotes.
We live in the 21st century, yet this 19th century "treatment" is still being used and people still buy into it because of it's very strong religious component. The program tells addicts that they are powerless to their "disease"....how is that helpful?
Addiction is a habit developed and reinforced from a reward system in the brain. It can be unlearned. Nobody with a normal IQ is powerless.
I've been in AA for more than 30 years and it only took a few years before I observed something that remains true to this day. One's IQ has absolutely NOTHING to do with becoming an addict OR getting sober. In fact, lower-intelligence people generally "get" AA far faster than high-IQ people do. They seem more willing to follow the dictum of "one day at a time." Smart people with a lot of education are the worst. No one can talk themselves into "why AA doesn't apply to them" or "how I can still take just a couple of drinks and I'll be OK" faster than a well-educated person.
And by the way, it is not at all necessary to embrace the religious component of AA to use the program to get sober. I know many AA members who are atheists. I myself refer to the "power of the group conscience" as my "higher power." I realize that people who are already religious are eager to assume that "God" is helping them get sober. But it's not necessary for the AA program to work.
After you see multiple people manipulate the system and their familys' emotions to their own end for years or decades you get sorta tired of it, or at least I do.
Yep, these people manipulate the system and the family. My cuz got a free ride (because poor Rick) but blew it each time. He blew it with my mom and when she kicked him out but he would harass her by phone, stay on the back porch crying and begging to stay, he'll quit drinking and get a job. She gave in. It got worse.
After her stroke needing 24/7 supervision he thought, "she needs me now". And the power game begin. He said to me several times "Your mom helped me now it's my turn to help her". He was playing me.
My mom was always personable but no more. I thought it was all the stroke. We was always going over her house to help her and found out about his drinking and verbal abuse and kicked him out. My brother and I (both work) were like deer in headlights, what do we do now? He kept calling us and thought we would take the easy way and give him a pass.
I'll never forget, my brother and I was talking about what in the world were we going to do but agreeing that we would not let him back, she overheard us and we confirmed it. Her personality change for "the better" was obvious and amazing. She was back to smiling and trying instead of acting like a meek woman.
He is 40+ yo drunk who took advantage of a woman in her 70's and with no intention of changing his ways. So yes, these people take advantage of anyone they can and I have NO sympathy.
I think that AA and other 12 Step Programs are cultish. I really do. They are not run by professionals and their success rate is 2%. That's right. 2%.
Honestly, I have lost more friends to AA, than I have to drugs or alcohol. Good people who may have over done it, now and then, but were funny, a little off beat, in a good way, who have been transformed into pedantic, AA know it alls, spouting bumper sticker slogans and pointing fingers at everyone.
Friends and family members becoming cult members - that's kind of a loss also.
I never knew those thinks about Bill W., tcmtom. But, they are disturbing.
I don't think that 2% figure is really reflective of AA success, primarily because many, many newbies are there because they were ordered to be at meetings and get something signed stating they attended meetings, usually as part of a repeat DUI offenders sentence. First, repeat DUI offenders tend to be hard core addicts, second, if they are there because they have to be, they are destined to fail. But AA still has to count them.
Also I am going to bet rates of staying sober are not much better in private $10,000 month rehabs.
Again, AA is still the only free program I know of, most addicts can't afford private rehab and county programs have very long waits to get in. In my ex-bf's group, I can tell you the success. Rate was much higher than 2%, although as long as it helped only him, that makes it worthwhile in my eyes. Bottom line if not for AA he would not be sober today, maybe not even alive.
There will always be a certain amount of people "in the wood pile" meaning with addictions like drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc. The answer is not to treat them like criminals, nor to ban the product, but to treat the addiction.
Take most of the money spent on "the war on drugs" and spend it on treating those addicted and there would be much less crime as a result of drugs.
Haven't read all these post but this is what I think our county needs to do more on prevention, and drug rehab instead of war on drugs. Needs to be a holistic approach because I have known many who got hooked on meth or other drugs and getting into a good program cost thousands. Some will never be able to get off drugs they are always going to have a problem with it. Nothing you can do about that but we need to spend more on helping instead of trying to build a wall on the borders.
Haven't read all these post but this is what I think our county needs to do more on prevention, and drug rehab instead of war on drugs. Needs to be a holistic approach because I have known many who got hooked on meth or other drugs and getting into a good program cost thousands. Some will never be able to get off drugs they are always going to have a problem with it. Nothing you can do about that but we need to spend more on helping instead of trying to build a wall on the borders.
Instead of spending thousands and holistic nonsense and other silliness, how about people use basic common sense and not put self-obliterating poisons in their bodies on purpose. An amoeba accomplishes this without any brain whatsoever, and you are going to tell me I have to pay my hard earned money over to retards who are too stupid not to ingest poisons for recreation.
We don't need a war on drugs, we need a war on morons.
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