To the People on the Other Side .... Can We Talk? (regular, brainwash)

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Ummagumma

You must not mix much with people from BLM or similar groups then. They don't want equality, but special treatment.

I don't see equality when a VP of a large corporation says "we must promote more women and minorities". This pretty much tells me she would give people preference based on their race and gender, not on their merit. And I saw it happening in the workplace time after time after time - "the next promotion must be a woman or a minority". This is fundamentally unfair, racist and sexist.

I also don't see equality in Affirmative Action. It's the program designed to help some groups of people by holding back others. It's especially unfair and unethical because it looks at the race rather than economics, so a middle-class Black or Hispanic applicant has better chances than a poor White or Asian one. I'd rather they spent the money and effort on improving education system in the poor areas, regardless of the racial makeup, and made all college admissions anonymous with no race of the applicant mentioned. You don't fix one wrong by creating another.

The Jews and the Asians were marginalized groups, underprivileged and discriminated against (the Chinese in the late XIX century America were for all practical purposes slaves) and they still achieved remarkable results without any special laws protecting them.

I don't want to come out of top because of my skin color or heritage. I just don't want to be held back to make space for someone else. Let the best student / worker / entrepreneur win, regardless of their race or gender.

And how much do you mix with people from BLM to have become the expert on them that you are?

Merit is often in the eye of the beholder. And over our history, millions of people with great merit were held back based on the race or gender.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

The U.S. may indeed be "deeply flawed" but that doesn't prevent it from being the greatest country on earth. One of the things I think that the Democrats may have missed during their eight-year turn in office was promoting our exceptional characteristics. Obama famously mocked his own country, at a press conference on April 4, 2009 (link), "I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism. " While he tempered the virtual impropriety of that remark later in his response to the newsperson's question, the fact is that those views are out of line with the views of many in America. And out of line with his sworn duties to advocate for the U.S and not for some amorphous "world." Many in America, myself included, consider that the U.S. is at the scene of every worldwide disaster. Our parents and grandparents blood soaked the beaches of Normandy to rescue the rest of the “world” from murderous and suicidal combat.

I agree, and indeed will rep this post. Obama was such an uncertain trumpet and Hillary little better. While I do not live in flyover country and am a left-wing liberal Democrat, I don't feel as if Obama spoke for me. In his dreams, and Hillary's to, swaying arm-in-arm with the leaders of the "world" was their ambition and maybe to the tune of Kumbaya. Hillary's actual campaign slogan and book title was "Stronger Together." I focus less on the slogan and more on the sympathies. And I voted for Hillary. I also understand why the people voted the way I did. And now we have one President (elect), one flag, one National Anthem and one country.

Here's the problem with your post. Almost every person that I've personally heard talk about American exceptionalism are not themselves the least bit exceptional. They tend to work common 8-5 jobs. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not exceptional; people do that all over the world. They point to the Founding Fathers, but most of them haven't read a damn thing that any Founding Father ever wrote. They talk about the great strides America has made in medical advancement, while talking down the very science that made those strides possible. And yes, I know many Thais who think Thailand is the most wonderful country in the world. Same for Malaysians. Same for Singaporeans. What your parents and grandparents did on the blood soaked beaches of Normandy has nothing to do with you. The nation may be exceptional; the vast majority of individuals in the nation are not exceptional. They're just "everyday people".

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by AfternoonCoffee

Did you see anyone on the right adhere to this philosophy over the past 8 years??

I mean, even the president-elect himself never stopped pushing his crude and disgusting accusations that President Obama wasn't really born in the US, isn't a legitimate US citizen, and was plotting with terrorists.

A nasty pig of a man like that doesn't love his county, I guess. He surely hasn't earned respect from well over half of the country he's supposed to "lead"

I didn't say I personally respect Trump. But his will at 12:05 p.m. on January 20, 2017 be President. I was willing to give Obama a chance, not that I had much choice as a middle-class lawyer from Westchester County. But Obama quickly sought world esteem at the expense of his country.

Originally Posted by phetaroi

Here's the problem with your post. Almost every person that I've personally heard talk about American exceptionalism are not themselves the least bit exceptional. They tend to work common 8-5 jobs. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not exceptional; people do that all over the world. They point to the Founding Fathers, but most of them haven't read a damn thing that any Founding Father ever wrote. They talk about the great strides America has made in medical advancement, while talking down the very science that made those strides possible. And yes, I know many Thais who think Thailand is the most wonderful country in the world. Same for Malaysians. Same for Singaporeans. What your parents and grandparents did on the blood soaked beaches of Normandy has nothing to do with you. The nation may be exceptional; the vast majority of individuals in the nation are not exceptional. They're just "everyday people".

Let's start with the U.S. having the world's greatest combination of freedom of speech, freedom of religion and great though not unlimited economic freedom. Find me a match or better.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

...

Let's start with the U.S. having the world's greatest combination of freedom of speech, freedom of religion and great though not unlimited economic freedom. Find me a match or better.

You see, you missed the point completely.

Those who talk the most about American exceptionalism are often not a bit exceptional. But they think because they are a part of the country, that it makes them somehow exceptional. It doesn't.

[Nonesuch]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

Merit is often in the eye of the beholder. And over our history, millions of people with great merit were held back based on the race or gender.

And so the way to address past imbalance is to hold different people back based on race/gender?
Because my grandfather found it easy to get a job as a union electrician, when I apply for a job as an electrical engineer, hiring should be done not on my merit, but rather H.R. should assign me demerits based on my grandfather's unmerited advantage last century?

Originally Posted by jbgusa

Let's start with the U.S. having the world's greatest combination of freedom of speech, freedom of religion and great though not unlimited economic freedom. Find me a match or better.

I've spent a fair amount of time in those countries, have friends who've done business in Singapore for decades.

The interesting thing about the SEA examples cited is that when you actually start talking to people who live there and love their country, many don't value freedom of speech, freedom of religion...economic freedom the same way so many Americans claim to. Citizens literally not only don't see a problem with the restrictions, they see them as positive facets of their constitution. They've internalized the restrictions to the extent that they see what we have in America as anarchy, not something to aspire to.

Originally Posted by phetaroi

You see, you missed the point completely.
Those who talk the most about American exceptionalism are often not a bit exceptional. But they think because they are a part of the country, that it makes them somehow exceptional. It doesn't.

I don't see myself as exceptional, but doubt I could be who I am anywhere but in America.

[AfternoonCoffee]

Originally Posted by Nonesuch

Absolutely. I have plenty of Republican friends who've never made personal attacks on Obama's eligibility and intelligence, and they only commented on Obama's skin color when it seemed apparent he had taken up smoking again.

But my friends aren't the high-visibility sound bite sources the media focuses on to discredit "the right", so you'd never know how they feel about our soon-to-be-former president.

You're right--I don't know your friends. I also know I am the least "media" influenced person I know (Sound familiar ) And I know plenty of Republicans, in real life, who have said vile, shameful things about the obamas.

The Republican folks I know who aren't "high-visibility sound bite sources"... are no longer Republicans. And most of them voted for Hillary.

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

You see, you missed the point completely.

Those who talk the most about American exceptionalism are often not a bit exceptional. But they think because they are a part of the country, that it makes them somehow exceptional. It doesn't.

You missed the point. The motto of our country means, "out of many, one."

Individuals may not be exceptional; the combination is. If you find single ingredients irresistible, when cooking, try eating the pepper, the garlic power or the raw stake separately. I guarantee you, you'll gag. The steak grilled to near-perfection, you won't be able to get enough of it.

[gibbsnm]

Originally Posted by Ummagumma

You must not mix much with people from BLM or similar groups then. They don't want equality, but special treatment.

I don't have to "mix" with anyone from Black Lives Matter. I am a Black woman, so I know first hand what it's like to be Black in this country. No, BLM members do not want special treatment. They want equal treatment. They want to be treated like human beings. They want to not have the people who are supposed to serve and protect all citizens automatically assume the worst of them because of what they look like or how they dress. Change is not made by people being silent. Why do you expect any group of people to sit down and shut up and tolerate repeated acts of injustice, just because their standing up makes some of you uncomfortable? Exactly what special treatment are those involved in BLM asking for? To not have black and brown people repeatedly shot down like dogs. Yeah, how dare they demand they get to actually walk around this country breathing and existing like any other human being! *smh* Did Eric Garner want special treatment? Did Tamir Rice want special treatment? Did Keith Scott want special treatment? Good lord, if you really this movement is about wanting special treatment then you don't have a clue and haven't even bothered to educate yourself on its origin. I guess you think those pesky protesters from the 60s shouldn't have had their marches and sit ins either. Was not wanting separate water fountains, bathrooms, schools, etc. as if we were a completely different species also asking for special treatment? The rest of your post indicates that you clearly have no idea about people who aren't like you, which is why I'm not even going to waste time responding to that nonsense. I can't believe how sheltered and blind to reality some of you folks are. Perhaps you should try viewing the world from a perspective other than your own cozy, protected bubble.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Nonesuch

And so the way to address past imbalance is to hold different people back based on race/gender?

Because my grandfather found it easy to get a job as a union electrician, when I apply for a job as an electrical engineer, hiring should be done not on my merit, but rather H.R. should assign me demerits based on my grandfather's unmerited advantage last century?


I've spent a fair amount of time in those countries, have friends who've done business in Singapore for decades.

The interesting thing about the SEA examples cited is that when you actually start talking to people who live there and love their country, many don't value freedom of speech, freedom of religion...economic freedom the same way so many Americans claim to. Citizens literally not only don't see a problem with the restrictions, they see them as positive facets of their constitution. They've internalized the restrictions to the extent that they see what we have in America as anarchy, not something to aspire to.


I don't see myself as exceptional, but doubt I could be who I am anywhere but in America.

1. Life is not always fair. For some groups for many decades it was ALWAYS unfair. But to be honest with you, I have never personally met a single person who was not working in their field because they lost out on a job because they were White. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's far more rare than some of you like to pretend with boo hoo hooing.

2. The countries of SE Asia that I cited all have freedom of religion. I've met many Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, and Hindus in all 3 countries I mentioned.

3. Their freedom of speech may be somewhat limited, but they see their countries as having other attributes that they don't see our country as having. And why exactly does the whole world have to aspire to our version of democracy?

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

You missed the point. The motto of our country means, "out of many, one."

Individuals may not be exceptional; the combination is. If you find single ingredients irresistible, when cooking, try eating the pepper, the garlic power or the raw stake separately. I guarantee you, you'll gag. The steak grilled to near-perfection, you won't be able to get enough of it.