Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This is a separate issue, from the one raised in the OP, though. This is about an expat learning the local language so that he can be understood in everyday interactions and for completion of tasks (shopping, dealing with the bureaucracy now and then), and possibly eventually accepted by co-workers and others in his milieu.
The OP is raising a very different issue. The discussion here is about whether ex-pats, whether temporary workers or permanent residents, should speak the language of their new home with each other, in private conversations that happen to take place in public places.
Actually, the topic is merely "Foreign languages in public". That would include citizens speaking foreign languages in public when they know how to speak English. When it's loud enough to hear then it's not a private conversation in public.
You keep associating languages other than English as being automatically “loud.” I hear many people speaking English loudly. Perhaps they should stop speaking English also.
I already addressed both under another reply. No, they aren't automatically loud but most of the time they are spoken loud enough for others to have to listen to it.
I figured this was a debate forum: a place to defend those opinions and possibly point out flaws in other opinions (in a friendly debate format). I am not saying you don't have a right to express your opinion, I don't even think you need to change it. I am just asking you to defend your opinion. The only debate point I've seen from you is that it's impolite. I would contend that politeness is subjective. For example, if it's impolite for two people to have a conversation in a langues you can't understand, does that also make it impolite for someone to have a conversation in English you don't understand? What's the difference? If someone is speaking so loud that you can't help but hear them, then I agree with you, that's impolite. But that sounds more like a problem with volume, not the language itself. I am sure if someone were doing anything loudly in public, it would be offensive.
How about we flip things around. Point out the flaws in my side of the debate. I contend that, as long as no laws are being violated, people can say anything in a private conversation that they want (note, private conversation, not loudly speaking). If someone wants to speak baby talk to a dog, they can (even if it's nonsense babble). If someone wants to go over technical specs of a project and their conversation is so full of jargon, they can (even if it sounds like nonsense to someone else). If someone wants to talk to their friend in a langue they both happen to speak, they can (even if some people around them don't know that language). To me, it's all the same. Stuff I can't understand (and probably can't hear if they are speaking normally and not shouting) and don't really care about.
The fact that it's rude and considerate isn't enough for you? As I said, I don't care to understand what they are saying it's having to listen to the foreign babble. Why do I owe you any more explanation than that?
I didn't say there were flaws in your opinion just that I don't agree with you. You seem hell bent on tearing mine apart though. Why don't you just let it be instead of posting the same remarks over and over in long paragraphs no less? You're not going to change my opinion anyway any more than I'm going to be able to change yours. You've stated your case and I've stated mine. I see things differently than you and feel no need to defend myself or owe you any explanations (even though I have) for my stance on this issue.
While English may be the "de facto" language, it is by no means the only language commonly spoken in this country.
Spanish has always been present, even before the so-called "illegal Mexican problem". I've already discussed this upthread.
In addition, the large Hispanic community isn't solely comprised of Mexicans.
And for grins and giggles, my Mexican-American husband speaks not a lick of Spanish, yet Anglos insist on talking to him in Spanish and we get Spanish ads all of the time in the mail.
I don't give a crap about random people so why should I care even if they were talking about me?
Also, since when is American culture primarily Anglo, as if English speakers and Europeans are the only groups that contributed anything?
Fixation with illegal aliens? Shouldn't we all be fixated on the negative impact they have on our society and the fact that they are here in violation of our laws and changing our demographics, culture and language unnaturally and unlawfully?
The 14th Amendment doesn't have to go away. It's written correctly. It's just not being interpreted correctly but it will be once the PC bleeding heart liberals get out of the way.
and THERE lies the rub.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory
All you are doing is repeating yourself! It doesn't need to be enforced as it's not against the law! What people should be taught though is to be respectful in public. That has to happen within the home but unfortunately far to many just don't care about respecting others, our language, etc.
Who's eavesdropping? I already addressed that also. It's about having to listen to loud foreign babble in public. I already stated that also. Why do I have to keep answering yours and other's question in here over and over? If you don't agree with my opinion then so be it but I have the right to express it. The topic was started to get everyone's feed back on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory
I already addressed both under another reply. No, they aren't automatically loud but most of the time they are spoken loud enough for others to have to listen to it.
re: the two above..... who is forcing ANYONE to listen to personal conversations in public spaces?? Or is all this "loud foreign babble" that you are so upset about actually people shouting and speechifying??
Please.... I am confused by what you mean by "loud"
Normal conversational tone between two or three people?? Is that loud??
I debated whether or not to enter this debate, but I'm a little bored today, so here goes:
I personally don't like how this country is becoming more and more multicultural to the point that, in my opinion, Euro-white culture in many areas is being overtaken by other cultures and some people are trying to make us feel guilty and/or ashamed of our heritage and the actions of SOME of our ancestors. I also think that people who come to this country with the intention of making it their home should learn English for reasons of communication and costs. (One of my pet peeves is how much it costs government -- and businesses -- to accommodate non-English speakers, and especially to put out voter information in other languages.)
HOWEVER --
1. I think any attempt to force people or make them feel guilty or ashamed for not speaking English is just stupid and unkind. How does anyone know that they are not just tourists or temporary visitors. Would you like to be penalized and/or scorned if you go to Portugal on vacation and don't speak Portuguese fluently?
2. The simple fact is that the U.S. is getting to be more and more multicultural, and Euro-whites will become less and less dominant. In my view, people can either (a) just accept that fact, (b) resent it and become bitter and regularly outraged, or (c) move to a less multicultural area where the Euro-white culture still prevails.
Last edited by katharsis; 10-10-2018 at 01:48 PM..
I debated whether or not to enter this debate, but I'm a little bored today, so here goes:
I personally don't like how this country is becoming more and more multicultural to the point that, in my opinion, Euro-white culture is being overtaken by other cultures and some people are trying to make us feel guilty and/or ashamed of our heritage and the actions of SOME of our ancestors. I also think that people who come to this country with the intention of making it their home should learn English for reasons of communication and costs. (One of my pet peeves is how much it costs government -- and businesses -- to accommodate non-English speakers, and especially to put out voter information in other languages.)
HOWEVER --
1. I think any attempt to force people or make them feel guilty or ashamed for not speaking English is just stupid and unkind. How does anyone know that they are not just tourists or temporary visitors. Would you like to be penalized and/or scorned if you go to Portugal on vacation and don't speak Portuguese fluently?
2. The simple fact is that the U.S. is getting to be more and more multicultural, and Euro-whites will become less and less dominant. In my view, people can either (a) just accept that fact, (b) resent it and become bitter and regularly outraged, or (c) move to a less multicultural area where the Euro-white culture still prevails.
America has never been a totally Euro-white nation. If one wants that then return to Europe. As a multiracial person, that bothers me that certain people equate American culture with White culture. I don't make you feel guilty or ashamed of being White, that's on you. It's baffling to me - what's so threatening about multiculturalism? Maybe it's a generational thing - I'm in my early 40s and was raised in a multicultural city. I don't know what life is like being in a homogenous society. My family is a mixed race family. My ancestry is so diverse that I don't even bother to think about it or care, I am a human being period.
America has never been a totally Euro-white nation. If one wants that then return to Europe. As a multiracial person, that bothers me that certain people equate American culture with White culture. I don't make you feel guilty or ashamed of being White, that's on you. It's baffling to me - what's so threatening about multiculturalism? Maybe it's a generational thing - I'm in my early 40s and was raised in a multicultural city. I don't know what life is like being in a homogenous society. My family is a mixed race family. My ancestry is so diverse that I don't even bother to think about it or care, I am a human being period.
America is what it is.
To clarify --
I agree with what you said, but in an attempt to be more clear --
Yes, whites and blacks and Native Americans were dominant for many years in the original 13 colonies, but Spanish-speaking people were not, and neither were Muslims or Asians and many other "kinds" of people. The fact is that the U.S. Constitution was created by Euro-white men -- although it is equally true that ALL kinds of men (and women) actually built this country and influenced its culture. Still, when I speak of traditional/Euro-white culture, I mean the culture that WAS (past tense!) promoted and held to be the "American Way of Life" or the "American Dream" for many decades. (And, btw, YES, I know that these were fictional to a great degree I also acknowledge that my view is necessarily different from your view and perception, although I think that is due in large part because I am more than 20 years older than you -- so, yes, it is an "age thing", too, I think!)
Now, I am not going to go into a long "history of the United States" discourse, as I am sure you know it as well as I do, but when I refer to "traditional U.S."and/or "Eurp-white" culture, I am talking about the main culture of the U.S. up to about 50 years or so ago in the Eastern half of the United States. (I realize as well as you do that much of the Western half has had much more of a Hispanic influence, as has Florida.)
As far as making me feel guilty for being Euro-white, all one has to do is watch some of the speakers at BLM or La Raza rallies -- or read many of the posts here on City Data and on other social media sites -- to know what I am talking about. Again, I want to stress I do know that only some Hispanics and blacks are racist, just like I know that only some whites are racist -- although I also know that some people disagree with that.
P.S. I also agree -- and have said many times -- about all of us as just "human beings"! I think the whole "identification by race or skin color" should be a thing of the past. Although as far as I know, all of my recent ancestors were descended from people who lived in northwestern Europe, I have a niece who is one-quarter Mexican, and my husband has two great-nieces who are a mix of Filipino, Mexican, black, Native American, Japanese, and Euro-white!
Last edited by katharsis; 10-10-2018 at 01:50 PM..
[quote=Oldglory;53319873]If someone is talking loudly in a public setting then how is it eaves dropping to hear it? Why would I care about their personal lives and want to know what they are talking about? I wouldn't even know them! You're grasping at straws now.
Well that's kind of the question of the week isn't it? Why DO yu care what they're talking about? Like you said, you don't even know them.
And why oh why would 2 ladies talking to each other in Spanish owe me any kind of respect, except basic civility...the same I'd expect from anyone?
No, it's their lack of respect for our nation's language and those around them when they know how to speak English but refuse to. If one isn't fluent in English then speaking it as often as they can will make them more fluent. Newsflash. U.S.A doesn't have an official language. Now...various states have official languages...English being ONE of them. Bet you didn't know that, right?
For instance, in Louisiana, the official LANGUAGES are english and french. In New Mexico, it's English and Spanish.
If someone is talking loudly in a public setting then how is it eaves dropping to hear it? Why would I care about their personal lives and want to know what they are talking about? I wouldn't even know them! You're grasping at straws now.
Well that's kind of the question of the week isn't it? Why DO yu care what they're talking about? Like you said, you don't even know them.
And why oh why would 2 ladies talking to each other in Spanish owe me any kind of respect, except basic civility...the same I'd expect from anyone?
No, it's their lack of respect for our nation's language and those around them when they know how to speak English but refuse to. If one isn't fluent in English then speaking it as often as they can will make them more fluent. Newsflash. U.S.A doesn't have an official language. Now...various states have official languages...English being ONE of them. Bet you didn't know that, right?
For instance, in Louisiana, the official LANGUAGES are english and french. In New Mexico, it's English and Spanish.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No, they aren't automatically loud but most of the time they are spoken loud enough for others to have to listen to it.