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My niece was a “stripper” for many years. She made poor choices when young and never got an education, chose the wrong men to have children with and found herself with few skills and kids to support. She never did drugs, drank or engaged in sex for money. Family tried to shame her but frankly I admired her courage to do what she needed to do to raise her children. She has been married to a great man now for 10 years, her oldest son is heading to college in the fall and her other kids are thriving. She always put her kids first. Is it an ideal career choice? Probably not. But the stereotypes of women who do this for a living are not always true. She was never sexually abused, never had a drug problem and, was never coerced into this work. She assessed her education, skills and need for income and made a choice. I knew another young woman who stripped for many years, bought her own home and was financially secure by the time she gave it up. Although I knew her parents well, I didn’t know her well enough to know why she chose that vocation but, she also did not fit the stereotype of drug addicted or coerced into the work either.
The simplest definition is, if somebody is getting off on it, yeah, it's sex.
Gotcha....so, by your prudish, narrow minded take a Sports Illustrated swimsuit magazine, Victoria's secret catalog, etc. are porno/sex magazines and any movie (or tv show) that shows scantily or bikini clad women(Baywatch anyone??), naked or nearly naked/topless women are porno/sex films, right?? If not, why not in your convoluted thinking?? I mean, there's no doubt many teen boys and even men (and, I'm sure, some females of the "alternate lifestyle") "get off" or are excited/titillated by such images in such magazines or films.
We can take the stupidity you espouse even further by then claiming that famous works of art or sculpture (try looking at Rodin's "The Kiss" ) that exhibit nudity or show a man & woman naked in some kind of pseudo sexual position are porn or "sex" and should fall under the "porn/sex" labeling.
I find it fascinating that you carry on fond relationships with people partaking in this "career". May I inquire what benefits they are lacking? Let's see ...they pay no taxes turning tricks. They decide their own hours. . Have you openly discussed what aspired them into such a trade?
Being washed up at 40 in the porn industry or turning tricks isn't something to vest a life in. I suppose these rights you speak of ...entail...sick days...unemployment ...insurance ..and being drug tested like the rest of legitimate employees. I'm trying to imagine them fighting in an at will state when they are sexually harassed. How does the wisdom of Solomon work that one out....ohh judge he grabbed my buttocks. ! Yeah.....not so well eh? Talk about sleeping with the boss ...or clients....puts a whole new spin on these workers rights. I'd say given the cold weather ...it's still not cold enough to see laws passed to "protect" and give rights to the performer. I just cannot find one glorifying thing about this trade work. Will the better business Bureau give them an a rating? Can a client get a refund? Hmmm. ...
You are not curious. You are being judgemental, insulting and uninformed.
My niece was a “stripper” for many years. She made poor choices when young and never got an education, chose the wrong men to have children with and found herself with few skills and kids to support. She never did drugs, drank or engaged in sex for money. Family tried to shame her but frankly I admired her courage to do what she needed to do to raise her children. She has been married to a great man now for 10 years, her oldest son is heading to college in the fall and her other kids are thriving. She always put her kids first. Is it an ideal career choice? Probably not. But the stereotypes of women who do this for a living are not always true. She was never sexually abused, never had a drug problem and, was never coerced into this work. She assessed her education, skills and need for income and made a choice. I knew another young woman who stripped for many years, bought her own home and was financially secure by the time she gave it up. Although I knew her parents well, I didn’t know her well enough to know why she chose that vocation but, she also did not fit the stereotype of drug addicted or coerced into the work either.
Thanks for posting this....although it goes against posters here who will reject it (mostly men with a savior complex) because it contradicts their preconceived notions that any such women who engage in stripping must in some way be physically or emotionally damaged, abused or somehow otherwise not of sound mind ....because, apparently, no "well adjusted" woman would ever choose to do so. There is a frequent poster here on CD who makes no bones about the fact that she was a stripper when she was younger and enjoyed it...and no, she wasn't victimized, abused, coerced or otherwise forced into it. No doubt there are many cases also where that is true but many posting here want to make it sound that only abused, beaten down drug addicts get into stripping - it must sooth their value system (which, like most ideologues, they want others to adopt or buy into without challenge) and/or make it understandable for them.
Those here, whether based on their own moralist bent, religious beliefs, etc. will either refuse to acknowledge or accept that some women willingly become strippers (and even enjoy it) because it goes against their narrow minded thought process.
Oh....ok...because a female head of a outreach project and a court opinion says it, it must be adopted by me and other rational people as true right? Unlike you apparently do, I don't just go along with what I'm told or what I'm supposed to believe without challenging it and using common sense.
Ask anyone what porn is and 99.9% of the time undoubtedly the answers you will get is people HAVING SEX or performing SEXUAL ACTS on video/film. No one is going to say "stripping" or "pole dancing".
Oh..and like you, I can find alternate sources of the definition of "pornography" that go against the one you've chose to prove a point (it didn't but...nice try):
pornography NOUN mass noun
Printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate sexual excitement.
Playboy features models in erotic poses. They aren't having sexual intercourse or even performing a simulated sexual act. It is porn. Just like stripping. I don't care whether you want to call it that or not but the definition you provided proves stripping is porn because stripping is 1)explicit 2)sexual 3)intended to stimulate sexual excitement. I'll take evidence over opinion (even my own) every time.
Gotcha....so, by your prudish, narrow minded take a Sports Illustrated swimsuit magazine, Victoria's secret catalog, etc. are porno/sex magazines and any movie (or tv show) that shows scantily or bikini clad women(Baywatch anyone??), naked or nearly naked/topless women are porno/sex films, right?? If not, why not in your convoluted thinking?? I mean, there's no doubt many teen boys and even men (and, I'm sure, some females of the "alternate lifestyle") "get off" or are excited/titillated by such images in such magazines or films.
We can take the stupidity you espouse even further by then claiming that famous works of art or sculpture (try looking at Rodin's "The Kiss" ) that exhibit nudity or show a man & woman naked in some kind of pseudo sexual position are porn or "sex" and should fall under the "porn/sex" labeling.
Defining stripping as porn doesn't mean it's bad, dirty or wrong. I have no problem at all with sex workers and I even watch porn (and I don't live an alternate lifestyle).
I don't consider swimsuit magazines, Victoria's secret, Baywatch etc to be porn because they don't meet the criteria - the intent in NOT to cause sexual arousal. I think this is where you're getting caught up. Porn is any portrayal of sexual behaviour with the intent to cause sexual arousal.
Of course, now they have cultural value over and above their original intent.
It seems that maybe you have a problem seeing these things as sexual (the use of pseudo-sexual kinda gives it away) and you're reacting a little defensively by arguing with people who are actually the least prudish on this thread.
Thanks for posting this....although it goes against posters here who will reject it (mostly men with a savior complex) because it contradicts their preconceived notions that any such women who engage in stripping must in some way be physically or emotionally damaged, abused or somehow otherwise not of sound mind ....because, apparently, no "well adjusted" woman would ever choose to do so. There is a frequent poster here on CD who makes no bones about the fact that she was a stripper when she was younger and enjoyed it...and no, she wasn't victimized, abused, coerced or otherwise forced into it. No doubt there are many cases also where that is true but many posting here want to make it sound that only abused, beaten down drug addicts get into stripping - it must sooth their value system (which, like most ideologues, they want others to adopt or buy into without challenge) and/or make it understandable for them.
Those here, whether based on their own moralist bent, religious beliefs, etc. will either refuse to acknowledge or accept that some women willingly become strippers (and even enjoy it) because it goes against their narrow minded thought process.
I will give you an example ( a real person) ....
Was sexually abused by a stepfather from age 6
Physically and emotionally abused by her mother (since age 3)
Abandoned and actually later (in her 20’s) emotionally abused by her father..
Developed severe mental illnesses during their teen years that were left untreated and tried to escape by embarking on a series of progressively more abusive relationships until eventually they found the skill to break out. Was hospitalised multiple times for mental issues including suicide attempts during this time.
As a consequence this person has been unable to complete her education and found herself essentially homeless and living at subsistence level with no hope of holding down any kind of regular job due to ongoing mental health episodes.
They made a conscious choice to engage in sex work as a stripper and then a escort it was really the only option available to them at the time that would allow them earn a income taking into account their mental health problems and need to take serious time off. And eventually through this work they become a successful private call girl style escort using the internet and were able to get some proper medical treatment for their mental heath and gradually got full control of their life again.
Sex work was actually their salvation from the misery of mental heath hell and trauma recovery.
I admire her ability to make a conscious decision to help herself using the means she had available.
About 4 years ago this person met a very nice guy who happened to be the regional manager of some apartments my business owns and they are now married with a little lovely daughter and another on the way (which is how I learned this story) ...
She has continued to perform sex work throughout this period as they save for a house and he accepts her choice which might seem incredible to many people and it did to me however they are very happy and obviously love each other very much and who is anybody to say that it hasn’t been a huge positive?
I find it fascinating that you carry on fond relationships with people partaking in this "career". May I inquire what benefits they are lacking? Let's see ...they pay no taxes turning tricks. They decide their own hours. . Have you openly discussed what aspired them into such a trade?
Being washed up at 40 in the porn industry or turning tricks isn't something to vest a life in. I suppose these rights you speak of ...entail...sick days...unemployment ...insurance ..and being drug tested like the rest of legitimate employees. I'm trying to imagine them fighting in an at will state when they are sexually harassed. How does the wisdom of Solomon work that one out....ohh judge he grabbed my buttocks. ! Yeah.....not so well eh? Talk about sleeping with the boss ...or clients....puts a whole new spin on these workers rights. I'd say given the cold weather ...it's still not cold enough to see laws passed to "protect" and give rights to the performer. I just cannot find one glorifying thing about this trade work. Will the better business Bureau give them an a rating? Can a client get a refund? Hmmm. ...
I find it fascinating that you accommodate your own sin whilst judging others. How does the wisdom of Jesus work that one out?
- “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
-If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
-Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?
- Let he who is without sin caste the first stone.
Defining stripping as porn doesn't mean it's bad, dirty or wrong. I have no problem at all with sex workers and I even watch porn (and I don't live an alternate lifestyle).
I don't consider swimsuit magazines, Victoria's secret, Baywatch etc to be porn because they don't meet the criteria - the intent in NOT to cause sexual arousal. I think this is where you're getting caught up. Porn is any portrayal of sexual behaviour with the intent to cause sexual arousal.
Of course, now they have cultural value over and above their original intent.
It seems that maybe you have a problem seeing these things as sexual (the use of pseudo-sexual kinda gives it away) and you're reacting a little defensively by arguing with people who are actually the least prudish on this thread.
Now who's being naive??? LOL. Ever hear the saying "Sex sells"???....and it's used in everything from selling "normal" magazines (like the SI Swimsuit issue....or maybe I guess that's just for women to check the new styles or men to appreciate the new offerings in skimpy swimwear? LMAO....oh...and don't neglect to consider that recently they've started putting "body painted" models imitating bikinis but on nude bodies), to magazines like Maxim, FHM, etc., men's colognes, alcohol and on and on. Make no mistake...the intent is fully to use sex as an enticer/arouser to engender interest, make money, etc...and that's NO different from a stripper using her "image" or dancing sexy to entice and gain interest, and looking to capitalize financially by it.
When "Fifty Shades of Grey" came out as a movie there were women advising other women to wear a panty liner when going to see it....Would that not be an indication of a portrayal/causing sexual arousal??? If so, why isn't it considered a porn movie? (and there are plenty of mainstream movies that contain sexual arousing scenes that portray sexual behavior...simulated sex or otherwise). Hell, you can watch a large number of movies/pay tv shows where strippers are featured and they are not on the XXX pay channels but "R" rated productions on HBO/Showtime/Cinemax, etc. Why is that not porn? Or does the fact that in strip clubs it's live change it from a non porn classification to a porn one??
You and others keep telling yourself what you need to.....the bottom line is the majority of people define and would describe porn as actual (not hinted at or simulated) physical sex acts on film, video or in explicit porn magazines (Hustler, etc) and would not consider stripping as part of that no matter what "outreach" helpers and those with an agenda say.
Now who's being naive??? LOL. Ever hear the saying "Sex sells"???....and it's used in everything from selling "normal" magazines (like the SI Swimsuit issue....or maybe I guess that's just for women to check the new styles or men to appreciate the new offerings in skimpy swimwear? LMAO....oh...and don't neglect to consider that recently they've started putting "body painted" models imitating bikinis but on nude bodies), to magazines like Maxim, FHM, etc., men's colognes, alcohol and on and on. Make no mistake...the intent is fully to use sex as an enticer/arouser to engender interest, make money, etc...and that's NO different from a stripper using her "image" or dancing sexy to entice and gain interest, and looking to capitalize financially by it.
When "Fifty Shades of Grey" came out as a movie there were women advising other women to wear a panty liner when going to see it....Would that not be an indication of a portrayal/causing sexual arousal??? If so, why isn't it considered a porn movie? (and there are plenty of mainstream movies that contain sexual arousing scenes that portray sexual behavior...simulated sex or otherwise).
You and others keep telling yourself what you need to.....the bottom line is the majority of people define and would describe porn as actual (not hinted at or simulated) physical sex acts on film, video or in explicit porn magazines (Hustler, etc) and would not consider stripping as part of that no matter what "outreach" helpers and eggheads say.
So playboy isn't porn?
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