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IMO modern society is just a thin veneer. Deep down we're still a bunch of medieval peasants and/or bronze-age tribesmen.
Women are still valued in large part for popping out babies, and keeping home & family together and running. Men are still valued in large part for their ability to provide and protect, and for their virility so that women can pop out babies.
Not saying these are inherently bad things... just saying that we gloss over such primitive 'values' these days. And they're at the root of why sex workers are shamed, disdained, abused, etc.
They're seen as women who short-circuit the social/family dynamic. Men give them money (that would otherwise go to the man's family). Men literally or figuratively cheat on their wives with said sex workers. There's no intent to procreate... no intent to build a family. Just money & sex... with no particular social/family benefit as far as the larger society is concerned.
Don't get me wrong- I'm not condemning these transactions. I'm personally pretty ambivalent about all this... just saying that I think this is why sex workers are shamed, mistreated, resented, etc. by so many people.
It's not a line of work that I'd recommend any woman go into. Not that I think it's inherently wrong/evil/etc. But abuse and degradation are rampant in the industry. Women in that line of work are vulnerable to it... in no small part *because* of the disdain society holds for them. Those dead-eyed young gals you see who have been strippers for a few years... they have their reasons. Most of them are addicts. Most of them have been abused or raped at some point.
When I was young and dumb, I went to strip clubs a few times down in Houston with some friends. It was kinda fun at the time, but not something I ever made a habit of. These days I have no interest in it though, now that I understand a little more about what's going on there. I just feel bad for those gals.
Please tell me you don't actually believe this. It simply isn't true. While the clubs may not technically 'allow' it, many will certainly turn a blind eye to it.
Many of those girls that are in it for the money have no qualms about being touched if it means they will increase their take home. Not saying they all become prostitutes because obviously they don't, but this 'good girl' stripper ideal isn't reality either. I imagine the truth lies somewhere in the middle for most strippers.
You live in the South, where "honest government" is an oxymoron. Your favorite dance club owner just pays law enforcement a kickback, and can do anything that is profitable.
You live in the South, where "honest government" is an oxymoron. Your favorite dance club owner just pays law enforcement a kickback, and can do anything that is profitable.
Probably quite true. Considering how much of the country is in the south/southeast that's a lot of women working in a lax club environment.
The women I knew (and still know them now that they are older and out of the business) worked in city where most of the more popular clubs were all owned by one of two guys, these were the higher end clubs too. Heard some wild stories.
Women are still valued in large part for popping out babies, and keeping home & family together and running. Men are still valued in large part for their ability to provide and protect, and for their virility so that women can pop out babies.
Not saying these are inherently bad things... just saying that we gloss over such primitive 'values' these days. And they're at the root of why sex workers are shamed, disdained, abused, etc.
They're seen as women who short-circuit the social/family dynamic. Men give them money (that would otherwise go to the man's family). Men literally or figuratively cheat on their wives with said sex workers. There's no intent to procreate... no intent to build a family. Just money & sex... with no particular social/family benefit as far as the larger society is concerned.
Yes but it's far more complex than that. Sex workers are no real threat to an individual family unit because:
1) Pregnancy can be and is avoided and even if a married man did get a sex worker pregnant there would be no feasible way of identifying or locating the father.
2) We still see the same level of condemnation when money isn't involved (ie men watching porn).
Sex workers and sexually liberated women strike at the very core of society and I don't know how to show this without writing an essay so please excuse the lengthy response.
Out society is built on cultural hegemony consisting of complex stratified social structures (social and economic classes). Each class has a social purpose and behaviour that is different from other classes whilst co-existing with them as part of the society. Because of their different social purposes the classes can come together with a greater social mission. Low value work is left to the lower classes whilst the elite pursue grander goals under the guise of advancing the quality of live for the whole society.
Whilst this sounds ideal it isn't. For this system to work there must always be a lower class and if the lower class were to become educated and empowered, thus moving up the social and economic classes there would be no one to do the low value work. Ironically, low value work is only deemed so because it suits the elite. Society would grind to a halt without the service industry yet it's classed as low value work.
We can see these social structures but don't fight them because we've been taught that is the way things are, it's how society works and we are limited in our ability to perceive the lives of others, to truly appreciate what life is like for those outside our class. This blind spot is encouraged and exacerbated by urban environments where we gather in class flocks of those most like us. We never raise our heads above our own lives to see the greater socio-economic exploitation nor do we want to. To admit we have certain luxuries only because we've exploited the lower classes is to expose our cultures hypocritical morality.
And to be fair, the higher classes make it hard for those beneath to question the fundamental sources of their socio-economic oppression. The elite preaches an idea of success that's both highly desirable and mostly unobtainable for the lower classes. This infection of “success†has us chasing the rich and vacuous whilst climbing on the backs of our most vulnerable: the mentally ill, poor, disenfranchised, and disabled.
We’re locked in a perpetual meme war where we live and die each day reviled or glorified by whimsical pop culture, where truth is found in articulate bullsh*t of 10 words or less. This same culture promotes aesthetic over character, wealth over effort, and compliance over integrity.
We, individually and as a society, spend days and nights exorcising and amputating the bits of ourselves our culture has decided are shameful in an effort to fit a perpetually mutating ideal only to end up digging through yesterday’s offal for parts now deemed fitting.
The idea is to keep you disorientated, so busy hopping from one foot to the next trying to stay on the right side of acceptable that we don't even notice we're running in circles having aborted critical thought as dissension's b@stard.
You see, women are crucial for the success of this system which was built on patriarchal foundations. Society needs women to breed so as to grow new generations of classes because systems like this take many generations to grow. Women are rewarded for compliance, conditioned to focus on their aesthetic and biological value to their own detriment. Sacrifice is the core component of this ideal where women are expected to give up any notion of independence and autonomy for the greater good of perceived societal progress. Women who break from this system by deciding how to use their bodies threaten the house of cards our society is built upon. Society responds to this threat by scapegoating them, using the media to paint such women as damaged, addicted, amoral, stupid etc whilst hiding the fact that the elite classes are equally full of damaged, addicted, amoral and stupid people.
There are no strip clubs anywhere near my home, but the juncos are having an orgy at the bird feeder. Sorry I can't help with your sexual fantasies. Unless you get off on feathers.
That'll teach me for posting when I'm tired. I'm sorry, I mistakenly said "Larry" when I meant Lucky.
Please tell me you don't actually believe this. It simply isn't true. While the clubs may not technically 'allow' it, many will certainly turn a blind eye to it.
Many of those girls that are in it for the money have no qualms about being touched if it means they will increase their take home. Not saying they all become prostitutes because obviously they don't, but this 'good girl' stripper ideal isn't reality either. I imagine the truth lies somewhere in the middle for most strippers.
It depends on the stripper and how much you're paying. If you're paying for a private lap dance then I'm sure they don't mind some light touching WITH consent. If you're on the main stage then you have to keep your hands to yourself or you'll be promptly kicked out by a bouncer 3x the size of you. If you think you're just going to grope someone just because they're a stripper, think again.
Quote:
Thou shall not grope
Grabbing a stripper’s body parts to see her tattoo is one of the biggest no-no’s. If you say, “I just want to see your tattoo,” you’re even worse. What was decreed in kindergarten still stands: look with your eyes, not your hands. Otherwise the bouncer's going to look with his hands while kicking you out.
Yes but it's far more complex than that. Sex workers are no real threat to an individual family unit because:
1) Pregnancy can be and is avoided and even if a married man did get a sex worker pregnant there would be no feasible way of identifying or locating the father.
2) We still see the same level of condemnation when money isn't involved (ie men watching porn).
Sex workers and sexually liberated women strike at the very core of society and I don't know how to show this without writing an essay so please excuse the lengthy response.
Out society is built on cultural hegemony consisting of complex stratified social structures (social and economic classes). Each class has a social purpose and behaviour that is different from other classes whilst co-existing with them as part of the society. Because of their different social purposes the classes can come together with a greater social mission. Low value work is left to the lower classes whilst the elite pursue grander goals under the guise of advancing the quality of live for the whole society.
Whilst this sounds ideal it isn't. For this system to work there must always be a lower class and if the lower class were to become educated and empowered, thus moving up the social and economic classes there would be no one to do the low value work. Ironically, low value work is only deemed so because it suits the elite. Society would grind to a halt without the service industry yet it's classed as low value work.
We can see these social structures but don't fight them because we've been taught that is the way things are, it's how society works and we are limited in our ability to perceive the lives of others, to truly appreciate what life is like for those outside our class. This blind spot is encouraged and exacerbated by urban environments where we gather in class flocks of those most like us. We never raise our heads above our own lives to see the greater socio-economic exploitation nor do we want to. To admit we have certain luxuries only because we've exploited the lower classes is to expose our cultures hypocritical morality.
And to be fair, the higher classes make it hard for those beneath to question the fundamental sources of their socio-economic oppression. The elite preaches an idea of success that's both highly desirable and mostly unobtainable for the lower classes. This infection of “success†has us chasing the rich and vacuous whilst climbing on the backs of our most vulnerable: the mentally ill, poor, disenfranchised, and disabled.
We’re locked in a perpetual meme war where we live and die each day reviled or glorified by whimsical pop culture, where truth is found in articulate bullsh*t of 10 words or less. This same culture promotes aesthetic over character, wealth over effort, and compliance over integrity.
We, individually and as a society, spend days and nights exorcising and amputating the bits of ourselves our culture has decided are shameful in an effort to fit a perpetually mutating ideal only to end up digging through yesterday’s offal for parts now deemed fitting.
The idea is to keep you disorientated, so busy hopping from one foot to the next trying to stay on the right side of acceptable that we don't even notice we're running in circles having aborted critical thought as dissension's b@stard.
You see, women are crucial for the success of this system which was built on patriarchal foundations. Society needs women to breed so as to grow new generations of classes because systems like this take many generations to grow. Women are rewarded for compliance, conditioned to focus on their aesthetic and biological value to their own detriment. Sacrifice is the core component of this ideal where women are expected to give up any notion of independence and autonomy for the greater good of perceived societal progress. Women who break from this system by deciding how to use their bodies threaten the house of cards our society is built upon. Society responds to this threat by scapegoating them, using the media to paint such women as damaged, addicted, amoral, stupid etc whilst hiding the fact that the elite classes are equally full of damaged, addicted, amoral and stupid people.
It isn't that complicated. Yes, hookers and porn addiction are a threat to families. Families are an essential foundation to a civil society. Men and women make sacrifices for their families. This is more important than their carnal desires or any of the other carpola spewed in your essay, ese.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with the professions of porn stars and strippers. If I were young again, I would do either, or both. As an Autistic, I have spent most of my life, quite unsuccesfully, putting on a facade that I was like "normal" person. As a stripper or porn star, I think it would be an easier acting job than anything else I have ever done. Plus, I would make enough that I would have the time and money to help other people and to pursue my perseverations. There is no way that I would be lowering my [very high] values, or lessening my self-esteem by doing so.
One thing I have not seen addressed, and I actually just sat here and read this entire thread (Ken and Rogue, omg you're lovely, wish I could rep you more)... There is a sense that is more aimed at men that I don't see people acknowledge much. See I'm with a guy who was raised by feminists and for a long time he struggled with feeling like his desires, as a guy, were horrible, dirty, and that women would be horrified and think he's a monster for having sexual desires for them like that. He felt a great deal of shame about it and had to recover and see women's humanity (and that we in fact can be pervs, too, sometimes) to get over this. And when you think of the fact that most men know that rape happens, and most men don't want to be rapists, but (honestly?) sometimes doing the dance and figuring out consent especially when we were young...I mean, there were times it confused me or I acted wrongly, lots of things I didn't understand well until later... Like I think there's an undercurrent of men feeling that they are INFLICTING something damaging and bad upon women, when they cast their sexual desire over us. And also that they don't want to FEEL feelings of desire and resent women for inciting them, especially knowingly. It's like living with a monster within, that you are ashamed of and try to hide and control so you can be good...but you know it's in there, and then having someone tease and taunt it.
I'm trying really hard to explain a concept. I am by no means saying this is a legitimate thing (like men's sexuality is in fact monstrous) or that all men feel this or anything. I'm saying that it's one of those...dare I say, "toxic masculinity" things...or something men are not conditioned to find peace with. Our society has a way of kinda messing up everyone's heads in my opinion.
When I read people insisting that porn degrades women, but never thinking that it degrades men...that things are always being done TO women... Well. Hey, uh, I'm involved in the BDSM scene and I've met many porn folks from kink sites (including the biggest out of SF, I am well acquainted with one Stefanos) and I can easily say that some people enjoy feeling degraded, some aren't feeling that way at all, and sometimes it's the women degrading the men. It's all out there. But if you go to some of the conventions I've gone to, damn straight these people are liberated. And not even remotely "dead inside" or damaged, broken, etc. They have simply made peace with the fact that sometimes, that which is taboo turns us on, and they are finding ways to play with the dark stuff without actually doing harm to anyone. Humans are pretty smart. I know lots of folks have this fear that if you fantasize about something, you want to take it to its most extreme and possibly harmful conclusions, but you'd really be quite surprised how much fulfillment can come from just acknowledging it, exorcising that demon a bit, and laying it to rest. I think lots of people are pretty comfortable with doing that, they just don't want any of the other monkeys to see them doing it and judge them. Can't admit what categories you're clicking in the privacy of your home, hey. lol It's ok. PornHub doesn't judge you.
Still haven't seen anyone give a sensible response in all 30 pages about why they feel entitled to judge women who do porn or stripping, but not men who do. Regardless, seriously, of whether it's more or less common... I am betting that certain of our most determined pearl clutchers would be more inclined to judge women for hiring a male stripper, than they would to judge the male stripper. Ultimately it just comes down to the idea that men are permitted to enjoy sex for its own sake. But if a woman is doing anything sexual outside of a morally, socially sanctioned and justified circumstance (a serious loving bond at the least, and preferably one sanctified in marriage)...she is somehow soiled, tainted, "has issues" or no sense of self worth. Which cracks me up.
LOL if I've never done it for money it might be the opposite, I never figured I was pretty enough to charge a man money for sex. Besides, it seems unfair, if I want it too. Aren't we already getting an even exchange? But I'm sure some of our scoldy folks here would have their opinions of the sheer number of partners I have had. Yet I have a feeling, my sense of self worth, my self esteem, is likely higher than theirs. I love myself and I love my life.
Anyhow, interesting thread guys.
Except the part where you argued semantics over what is and isn't "sex work." I dunno, people I know in porn and stripping do consider it that, and so do the pro Dommes who don't do any actual "acts" that could get them in trouble for prostitution, but will be happy to dress in latex, tie you up, call you names and hit you with things for a price. Seems it's a matter of solidarity for a marginalized community of sorts, or at least one where people feel rather misunderstood. Reading this it's sure easy to see why.
One thing I have not seen addressed, and I actually just sat here and read this entire thread (Ken and Rogue, omg you're lovely, wish I could rep you more)... There is a sense that is more aimed at men that I don't see people acknowledge much. See I'm with a guy who was raised by feminists and for a long time he struggled with feeling like his desires, as a guy, were horrible, dirty, and that women would be horrified and think he's a monster for having sexual desires for them like that. He felt a great deal of shame about it and had to recover and see women's humanity (and that we in fact can be pervs, too, sometimes) to get over this. And when you think of the fact that most men know that rape happens, and most men don't want to be rapists, but (honestly?) sometimes doing the dance and figuring out consent especially when we were young...I mean, there were times it confused me or I acted wrongly, lots of things I didn't understand well until later... Like I think there's an undercurrent of men feeling that they are INFLICTING something damaging and bad upon women, when they cast their sexual desire over us. And also that they don't want to FEEL feelings of desire and resent women for inciting them, especially knowingly. It's like living with a monster within, that you are ashamed of and try to hide and control so you can be good...but you know it's in there, and then having someone tease and taunt it.
I'm trying really hard to explain a concept. I am by no means saying this is a legitimate thing (like men's sexuality is in fact monstrous) or that all men feel this or anything. I'm saying that it's one of those...dare I say, "toxic masculinity" things...or something men are not conditioned to find peace with. Our society has a way of kinda messing up everyone's heads in my opinion.
When I read people insisting that porn degrades women, but never thinking that it degrades men...that things are always being done TO women... Well. Hey, uh, I'm involved in the BDSM scene and I've met many porn folks from kink sites (including the biggest out of SF, I am well acquainted with one Stefanos) and I can easily say that some people enjoy feeling degraded, some aren't feeling that way at all, and sometimes it's the women degrading the men. It's all out there. But if you go to some of the conventions I've gone to, damn straight these people are liberated. And not even remotely "dead inside" or damaged, broken, etc. They have simply made peace with the fact that sometimes, that which is taboo turns us on, and they are finding ways to play with the dark stuff without actually doing harm to anyone. Humans are pretty smart. I know lots of folks have this fear that if you fantasize about something, you want to take it to its most extreme and possibly harmful conclusions, but you'd really be quite surprised how much fulfillment can come from just acknowledging it, exorcising that demon a bit, and laying it to rest. I think lots of people are pretty comfortable with doing that, they just don't want any of the other monkeys to see them doing it and judge them. Can't admit what categories you're clicking in the privacy of your home, hey. lol It's ok. PornHub doesn't judge you.
Still haven't seen anyone give a sensible response in all 30 pages about why they feel entitled to judge women who do porn or stripping, but not men who do. Regardless, seriously, of whether it's more or less common... I am betting that certain of our most determined pearl clutchers would be more inclined to judge women for hiring a male stripper, than they would to judge the male stripper. Ultimately it just comes down to the idea that men are permitted to enjoy sex for its own sake. But if a woman is doing anything sexual outside of a morally, socially sanctioned and justified circumstance (a serious loving bond at the least, and preferably one sanctified in marriage)...she is somehow soiled, tainted, "has issues" or no sense of self worth. Which cracks me up.
LOL if I've never done it for money it might be the opposite, I never figured I was pretty enough to charge a man money for sex. Besides, it seems unfair, if I want it too. Aren't we already getting an even exchange? But I'm sure some of our scoldy folks here would have their opinions of the sheer number of partners I have had. Yet I have a feeling, my sense of self worth, my self esteem, is likely higher than theirs. I love myself and I love my life.
Anyhow, interesting thread guys.
Except the part where you argued semantics over what is and isn't "sex work." I dunno, people I know in porn and stripping do consider it that, and so do the pro Dommes who don't do any actual "acts" that could get them in trouble for prostitution, but will be happy to dress in latex, tie you up, call you names and hit you with things for a price. Seems it's a matter of solidarity for a marginalized community of sorts, or at least one where people feel rather misunderstood. Reading this it's sure easy to see why.
The
Best
Comment
Ever
Not only are you funny AF but you make a lot of sense as well. I'm so glad you brought up the 'man' angle, it's a great point.
This thread was really enlightening for me mostly because of the 'because I said so' mentality but also because it forced me to acknowledge some really uncomfortable truths about the way women view and treat other women.
Anyway, glad you posted Sonic
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