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We’ve all heard on TV or radio about the spate of tragic murders involving the elderly and children. Most recently, here in Washington State, an obviously despondent father killed his five children and then drove off and shot himself. The nursing home shootings last week, in which 8 patients and several nurses where killed, and several others were injured, was equally appalling. A teen gunman in Winnenden, Germany (which has strict gun control laws) opened up and killed 15 people before killing himself. A Vietnamese immigrant, recently a new American citizen, shot 13 people in Binghamton, NY, and then shot himself. The police chief, obviously not a psychologist, dismissed the shooter as “a coward”.
I think bravery per se has little, if anything, to do with these events.
I’m in no way a psychologist, much less one that might specialize in understanding the processes and mental gymnastics that turn a person, most often a male, from a quiet, often Church-going, responsible parent into one who not only wants to take his own life but also feels compelled to kill those he doesn’t know.
Even harder to figure would be that he takes the lives of beloved family members. One suspects, of course, that after the first is killed, the overwhelming guilt and terror and depression would prompt a suicidal action.
I fear that our overwhelming economic situation has much to do with this significant rise in such actions. I listened to a recent NPR story about the lives of some bread-winners who had been very successfully employed until last year. One man, a senior executive making a 6-figure income for many years, and looking forward to a quiet and enjoyable retirement in 5 years, has now been unemployed for over 9 months. He has submitted over a thousand specialized resumes (focused on the specific job he’s after) and yet had landed only a handful of interviews.
Right now, there are few businesses expanding their employee numbers, or even replacing departing retirees.
The combination of one’s self-image of being a good provider, of coming home to a nice home, a lovely and devoted wife, and, say, two or three loving children, runs onto the shoals of reality now. NPR’s subject admitted to having “dark thoughts” now, because the accumulating debt, his now-total lack of credit availability and the looks in the eyes of his family, are, he said softly, perhaps beyond his ability to take in stride much longer. He is but one of, literally, millions in this country facing catastrophic times.
There are no quick and simple answers, such as “Ban all guns!” or “Put ‘em to work digging ditches! Why, when I was their age….blah blah” Or, “If we all just embraced Christ in our lives…” Such simplistic and uninformed solutions are, rather, an insult to most rational folks’ common sense and intelligence.
What can we do as our economy goes further down the toilet? Is there a communal solution? Are we an altruistic and compassionate community? Should we realize, now, that we truly are in this together?
Your thoughtful and compassionate ideas???
Last edited by rifleman; 04-06-2009 at 10:06 AM..
Reason: typos
Just a few offhand remarks while I wait to see where this thread goes - - - -
I think you have characterized two different motivations as a single category,. On the one hand, a suicidal person might be reluctant to kill himself, because of the huge burden that might place on his family. Eventually, he resolves to take them along to the grave, and spare them that weight. On the other hand, a mass murderer might not become suicidal until he reflects on what he has just done, and elects not to endure the consequences.
What you call a "significant rise" in such actions is not that at all. It is just a coincidental grouping of them. We didn't have 5 more such incidents this week---we had no more of them. A significant decline.
Reflecting on modern society, I am often puzzled when I see weeping news anchorettes twisting their Kleenex or Bill-O wannabes frothing about a junior high school gunman, "Why would any kid do such a thing?". In fact, I often wonder who so FEW kids do such things.
We’ve all heard on TV or radio about the spate of tragic murders involving the elderly and children. Most recently, here in Washington State, an obviously despondent father killed his five children and then drove off and shot himself. The nursing home shootings last week, in which 8 patients and several nurses where killed, and several others were injured, was equally appalling. A teen gunman in Winnenden, Germany (which has strict gun control laws) opened up and killed 15 people before killing himself. A Vietnamese immigrant, recently a new American citizen, shot 13 people in Binghamton, NY, and then shot himself. The police chief, obviously not a psychologist, dismissed the shooter as “a coward”.
I think bravery per se has little, if anything, to do with these events.
I’m in no way a psychologist, much less one that might specialize in understanding the processes and mental gymnastics that turn a person, most often a male, from a quiet, often Church-going, responsible parent into one who not only wants to take his own life but also feels compelled to kill those he doesn’t know.
Even harder to figure would be that he takes the lives of beloved family members. One suspects, of course, that after the first is killed, the overwhelming guilt and terror and depression would prompt a suicidal action.
I fear that our overwhelming economic situation has much to do with this significant rise in such actions. I listened to a recent NPR story about the lives of some bread-winners who had been very successfully employed until last year. One man, a senior executive making a 6-figure income for many years, and looking forward to a quiet and enjoyable retirement in 5 years, has now been unemployed for over 9 months. He has submitted over a thousand specialized resumes (focused on the specific job he’s after) and yet had landed only a handful of interviews.
Right now, there are few businesses expanding their employee numbers, or even replacing departing retirees.
The combination of one’s self-image of being a good provider, of coming home to a nice home, a lovely and devoted wife, and, say, two or three loving children, runs onto the shoals of reality now. NPR’s subject admitted to having “dark thoughts” now, because the accumulating debt, his now-total lack of credit availability and the looks in the eyes of his family, are, he said softly, perhaps beyond his ability to take in stride much longer. He is but one of, literally, millions in this country facing catastrophic times.
There are no quick and simple answers, such as “Ban all guns!” or “Put ‘em to work digging ditches! Why, when I was their age….blah blah” Or, “If we all just embraced Christ in our lives…” Such simplistic and uninformed solutions are, rather, an insult to most rational folks’ common sense and intelligence.
What can we do as our economy goes further down the toilet? Is there a communal solution? Are we an altruistic and compassionate community? Should we realize, now, that we truly are in this together?
Your thoughtful and compassionate ideas???
I think the decline in the number of religious people in the US leaves a compassion hole. It used to be people went to their clergymen and religious communities for support when they couldn't turn to their families for help. I'm not talking about God, here, but I'm talking about the people in those religious communities who would take care of one of their own in hard times. And, I am saying this as a non-practicing Catholic so no religious agenda here. I think the decline of religion in the US is a shame. I'm not too hopped up about those mega-churches, either, because they offer God but they're too impersonal (in my opinion) because of their size. I sure as he** wouldn't turn to the government/a government website for help. I think very highly of the Salvation Army, though.
I wish there was an easy answer that could be put into place to stop this sort of thing. IMHO a good amount is that screwing up or failing (even through no fault of your own) is often seen as an end game situation instead of picking yourself off and continuing. There is a good number of people who seem to tie their self worth to their job, and their lifestyle. Plus growing up often it didn't matter if you improved or learned, you are expected to be perfect the first time (taken especially hard by people who are really type A). People can't seem to look to their friends or family for help after that, because they failed and are a looser...they have to look strong, confident, and everything is perfect.
Interesting thread.
This could be discussed at great length.
America is a society that accepts (and even encourages) violence as a solution to various conflicts. The recent rampaging outbreaks are a symptom of our society, but very few people care to look for causes.
America is an "everybody for himself, to hell with your neighbor" mentality.
It could be that when people lose jobs and can't find any others, they also find very few people who can empathize with them, and feel abandoned. From the despair (and self-pity) they may turn to anger and begin to have thoughts of revenge on anyone.
As for the religion. I think that religions do not provide comfort, nor show compassion. They have different agendas, mostly political and/or keeping a sharp watch on sexual behavior. This is not the fault of religion. It's just that America is not a nation where one should expect any compassion from others. Those who expect it should reconsider.
This is a nation of people who are on the edge, paranoid and combative; they don't need much to push them over the edge.
I think one very unfortunate circumstance is that this society has put so much emphasis on consumerism and materialism, pushing any thoughts of the quality of life aside. In America these are the symbols of success. Those who have less possessions are often considered as failures. Now the consumerism and materialism is being seriously threatened, leaving people to see nothing else.
You know I think that the people who have now found themselves without a good paying job and they no longer have the ability to continue to live the lifestyle they have become so acustomed to are finding it hard to cope in this economic downturn. They possibly see themselves as failures and asking for handouts can also make them feel like less of a person, especilly if they have made rude comments about people who do and have asked for handouts. It is very likely they are becoming depressed. Depression can cause people to do some crazy things and for those who have never really experienced depression or depressing times it can cause them to snap and totally lose their minds.
Sometimes I'm glad that my family has never been overly wealthy and that we have had to struggle from time to time as by doing so it has taught me how to pick myelf up/or never let myself get down and keep on trudging on. We have had to learn how to overcome obsticles, and we are not to proud to do any kind of work. When you are willing to do any job, it makes finding a job so much easier. I know people who have turned down jobs, only because those jobs are beneath them. They have to high of an opinion of themselves and now they are struggling because the jobs they feel that are worthy of having are not available.
Some people say it sucks to be poor. I think it would suck to be rich. As the poor have no other way to go but up, where as the rich can only go down. Once you have been at the top the bottom can only seem to be nothing but despair. I prefer being able to see a light at the end of the tunnel rather than seeing a deep dark hole.
First, I hope you live in an area with some people. If you do, I ask you to go out and count the number of times that you hear a negative remark either about or to someone else. Remain silent and count. Go to a bar and listen. Stop at the gas station and listen.
If you pass someone on the street who is hated in your town or considered a ne'er do well then watch how others interact or ignore that individual. Listen to the number of times someone speaks of someone from another culture, disability or heck, any old thing. Just count.
I have another response to this, but I do not have the time to do so at the moment. I just wanted to see if you might be willing to do that.
I actually think the police chief actually called it correctly. The guy was a coward just like everyone who does $hit like this. There isn't enough "Psychology" that can figure this out. At the root...cowards.
Wyoq, , that economic downturn has been going on steadily for at least 20 years, maybe more.
around 1980 I pointed out to a friend that "Every American now has the last good job he will ever have". He told me the other day that he remembered when I said that. It was true then, but nobody realized it until they lost that good job and had to go and sell cars or french fries. But now, for the first time, our entire nation had that peril thrown in their faces. The media finally broke down and admitted it. And now everybody knows it. Things are no different now than they were in 1980. But now the media is telling you that it is happening to other people, and you are realizing what a mess we are in.
It's not all about the economy. Our schools have failed us, our churches have reneged on morality, our media has hypnotized us, our technology has placated us with useless playthings,, our generations have lost continuity, our environment is made of petrochemicals, imaginary fears and illusory dangers stalk the land, the police are the enemy, our constitution is a suggestion to executive order. The economic downturn is just breaking a lot of camels' backs.
Just a few offhand remarks while I wait to see where this thread goes - - - -
I think you have characterized two different motivations as a single category. On the one hand, a suicidal person might be reluctant to kill himself, because of the huge burden that might place on his family. Eventually, he resolves to take them along to the grave, and spare them that weight. On the other hand, a mass murderer might not become suicidal until he reflects on what he has just done, and elects not to endure the consequences.
What you call a "significant rise" in such actions is not that at all. It is just a coincidental grouping of them. We didn't have 5 more such incidents this week---we had no more of them. A significant decline.
Thank you for saying that last bit! It's a mistake to see a couple of anomalous incidents and over-generalize them into a societal trend. Think of the hundreds of thousands -- nay, MILLIONS -- of harassed high-school kids who never buy guns and shoot up their high schools, and never kill themselves either. If even one out of 100 of them "went Columbine" we would be knee-deep in dead teachers and students. Maybe neck-deep.
People turn to violence when they run out of ideas. There are other options out there for people who know to look. It's super scary to be an aerospace engineer who can't find a job in his field after 1,000 applications, but there are plenty of other things an educated person like that can do. Other kinds of engineering, other number-crunching jobs, etc. And that person may have to do what thousands of others are doing, and get a job bussing tables in a restaurant or delivering pizzas until the storm passes. You do what you have to do to get by. I learned recently that the practice of forcing women to quit their jobs as soon as they got married -- which continued into the Seventies in this country -- dates back to the Great Depression, when women who had someone supporting them were expected to walk away from a job someone else might need to feed a family. They did it willingly, for the greater good, and made do on what their husbands brought home. Can you imagine that happening today? We are nowhere near that point.
The Vietnamese guy I see differently. In SE Asia they have a specific name for this phenomenon -- it's called "running amok." After a public humiliation, or a series of them -- maybe flunking an exam -- a certain percentage of Southeast Asian men get a knife or a gun and kill as many strangers as they can until they are shot down or end their own lives. There's definitely an element of cowardice in it, because they're using a gun to solve their problems rather than just facing the consequences of flunking the stupid exam, but it's also about ego and a bunch of other messed-up stuff our species is prone to. It's a weird little cultural curlicue, like the men in this country who kill their children at the same time they kill themselves, as an "I'll show you" statement to the children's mother. That doesn't happen at all in some parts of the world, but you see it every so often here.
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