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I don't know why you would want this thread closed in light of the more interesting points brought by Indentured Servant. The article has little value, but his points are worthy of discussion.
I want the thread closed because it's thirty-seven pages of some hostile arguing, and it's just gone far enough in general.
Indentured Servant's points have been discussed by other users for the past thirty-something pages. I'm sure most have had enough.
I want the thread closed because it's thirty-seven pages of some hostile arguing, and it's just gone far enough in general.
Indentured Servant's points have been discussed by other users for the past thirty-something pages. I'm sure most have had enough.
I've been following thread and haven't seen an in depth conversation. I have seen the arguing, which is par for the course on forums, I guess. Closed or not, a new thread will arise to address the topic.
I want the thread closed because it's thirty-seven pages of some hostile arguing, and it's just gone far enough in general.
Indentured Servant's points have been discussed by other users for the past thirty-something pages. I'm sure most have had enough.
Yes...its been 30 pages of obfuscation, misdirection, ad hominem dissent by folks with observations about black people that lacked explanation. This topic led me to start another topic to challenge people to to an intellectual debate concerning the EXPLANATION to the OBSERVATION of black folks. People did not want to have that debate. Why? The reason is that the explanation provided by dissenters, if they were to give it, would expose them as racist. It would expose their beliefs in the general inferiority of black people relative to white people. By default, rejecting the external theory of causation is a selection of the internal theory of causation. This is what is implied in their dissent, but never stated because it would cleary expose what they seek to hide not only from others.....but more importantly.....from themselves. Truth is more painful than fiction. That is why some people want the debate closed and others have choosen to ignore the topic. People present statistics about black people but never give their explanation as to what causes these statistics. All I want from whites is an explanation for their observations and statistics.
First of all, I am arguing principle here. I am not arguing that white people should have to pay anything. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy of the rational that they give for objecting to the ideal of being bound to any past debts of society. I don’t see what so hard about that to understand.
Again, you should stick to the main topic rather than throw out fallacies left and right. Your examples are a bit relevant, but at the same time, have nothing to do with that specific point we are discussing. Based on your reasoning, everyone owes everyone. Which basically means that we are f--ed and in debt forever.
I have yet to read a good reason from you on why white people have to keep repaying the debt over and over again to blacks that their ancestors have left behind for them. The debt has been repaid by society already. How many generations do white people have to pay until blacks are satisfied?
Again, you should stick to the main topic rather than throw out fallacies left and right. Your examples are a bit relevant, but at the same time, have nothing to do with that specific point we are discussing. Based on your reasoning, everyone owes everyone. Which basically means that we are f--ed and in debt forever.
I have yet to read a good reason from you on why white people have to keep repaying the debt over and over again to blacks that their ancestors have left behind for them. The debt has been repaid by society already. How many generations do white people have to pay until blacks are satisfied?
It has hardly been established that the debt has been repaid. Furthermore, I am not expecting white people to repay anything, for I am just noting the cause of the effect which is the black condition of today. However, if I were expecting whites to repay a debt of society that was centuries in the making,.....I certainly would not expect that they could pay it back in just a few decades, without totally depriving themselves of consumption. Thus, to be clear, I am not arguing on behalf of white payment, I am simply arguing on behalf of white responsibility for the condition. Its only when whites start talking about "I should not have to pay because....." that I counter their rationale for not having to pay, nothwistanding the fact that I have never argued that they have to pay a cent. Your argument it a red herring.
This is hyperbole and a straw man. Let’s just say we forget about slavery all together. Let’s just say we focus on 100 year era of apartheid that followed slavery and lasted, legally, up to the late 60’s. There are millions of perpetrators and victims alive from this oppression, but you purposely left it out to forward the straw man that black oppression ended 150 years ago and all the perpetrators and victims are dead and gone and hence, there is nothing that can be done or should be done.
Yes, one should study history and note that in every generation, for the last 150 years, whites have rationalized a negative view of black people and have argued that “there is no race problem”. Whites have never been “Up to date” in recognizing the wrongs of their contemporary behavior, as a whole. There is like a 40 or 50 year lag in recognizing that the treatment of blacks in certain eras was wrong. IQ test basically test how well a person can recognize patterns. However, in order to recognize patterns, you have to have memory of those patterns stored somewhere in your brain. Therefore, you either have a low IQ as a result of not being able to recognize patterns or you have a low IQ for having a poor memory…..either way…..you are not coming off as intelligent….by any metric.
OK, we can talk about the oppression in the 150 years since. And even so, blacks in the U.S. have a better standard of living than blacks anywhere, including places like Haiti that are basically all black. Further, most currently alive whites had nothing to do with the Jim Crow era, so they will never take ownership for it, because they feel they niether perpetrated it, nor benefited from it. In short they don't care, and are tired of hearing about it when they have their own economic struggle to worry about. For them, it's over and done with simple as that.
If not, then when does it end? Should Italy be paying me for the fact that they overran England 1000 years ago as the Roman Empire, and enslaved England.
I say, if reparations are to restore folks to where they would've been had the wrong not occured... great. American Blacks would be in Africa. So let's send them all back. Repatriation = Reparation.
Yes, there is a race problem. Blacks like yourself refuse to move forward. And many misguided young blacks adopt Gangsta culture as a result. And so perpetuate the cycle of blacks being viewed negatively. Blacks do it to themselves, over and over again.
OK, we can throw IQ tests out if you want. Even so, schools full of blacks have the worst education results of all schools. Further, as they act like gansta hoodlums, in integrated schools, they pull down everyone else.
Just look around the Los Angeles school system. Same correlation as everywhere else. Black = decline.
And you'll note, the Haitian poster I was responding to did exactly what whites do... he took flight from Haiti, a free black majority colony for the 400 years of American slavery... and ran to a whiter place.
So essentially intelligent blacks run from black areas too. So guess we should stop calling it "White Flight" and call it what it is, "Flight from Africanized areas".
Until blacks get past the past and move forward, stop hugging the slavery chains and chanting, "400 years of slavery" and "Jim Crow", people will continue to react as they do.
Blacks themselves must move forward for anything to change. The whites fought the civil war over this stuff 150 years ago. Slaverly lost. Now move foreward, or expect to get the same reaction until the black community changes.
Until the crime stats etc. visibly change, people are going to believe thier own eyes and come to the same conclusions they always have.
It's that simple and that hard.
There is no hyperbole, no straw man, just the facts on the ground. Please go back and look at the statistics I've posted several times. There is an strong correlation between black and problems. Correlation isn't causation, but for the average person trying to live their lives without problems... it's a good way to bet.
So folks will, even if they can't say it publicly, continue to try and avoid black areas until they have a good reason not to.
You need to get over the Slavery and Jim Crow thing. Geez, you just as bad a southerners that still fly the Confederate Flag and talk about how Gen. Lee was a better commander than Grant. OK, fine. Lee was the better man. Guess what, The North still won. Same thing you should realize... Slavery and Jim Crow are over. Not only that, but a lot of whites fought and died in the Civil War and died during the early Civil Rights movement over this issue. So far as many whites are concerned, nothing more is owed. Jump up and down all you like (as is typical for blacks, i.e. rioting) but, especially in these economic times, no one wants to hear it anymore. And as the trend toward repealing Affirmative Action shows, folks are in fact, fed up with it.
By all means, please feel free to immigrate to where "white devils" are not. And give us a report on how great it is.
It has hardly been established that the debt has been repaid. Furthermore, I am not expecting white people to repay anything, for I am just noting the cause of the effect which is the black condition of today. However, if I were expecting whites to repay a debt of society that was centuries in the making,.....I certainly would not expect that they could pay it back in just a few decades, without totally depriving themselves of consumption. Thus, to be clear, I am not arguing on behalf of white payment, I am simply arguing on behalf of white responsibility for the condition. Its only when whites start talking about "I should not have to pay because....." that I counter their rationale for not having to pay, nothwistanding the fact that I have never argued that they have to pay a cent. Your argument it a red herring.
Whatever percentage of my taxes go to Affirmative Action programs and other social programs aimed at blacks is still paying that debt. Essentially at gunpoint, as that's how laws are enforced. So I'd say the debt is still being extracted.
The Black Tax continues in many, many ways.
We are all paying for the stupidity of the people who brought africans here in the first place. They were too stupid to realize you can't transplant anything from africa to any other less hostile biosphere and not have it eventually outgrow and choke everything else out.
Humans aren't excepted from the laws of nature.
I suspect that someday, Native Americans will be less angry about the encroachment of whites, than the transplantation of africans to the Americas.
The Carribean is a fine example. Most of the Carribean went through the same cycle only faster. Whites supplanted Arawaks, and were then supplanted themselves by an overgrown african population.
And... despite and the screaming by blacks about whites... I've never seen any black argue that the Carribean should be given back to the Native Americans. So blacks aren't on any higher moral grounds than anyone else.
OK, we can talk about the oppression in the 150 years since. And even so, blacks in the U.S. have a better standard of living than blacks anywhere, including places like Haiti that are basically all black. Further, most currently alive whites had nothing to do with the Jim Crow era, so they will never take ownership for it, because they feel they niether perpetrated it, nor benefited from it. In short they don't care, and are tired of hearing about it when they have their own economic struggle to worry about. For them, it's over and done with simple as that.
If not, then when does it end? Should Italy be paying me for the fact that they overran England 1000 years ago as the Roman Empire, and enslaved England.
I say, if reparations are to restore folks to where they would've been had the wrong not occured... great. American Blacks would be in Africa. So let's send them all back. Repatriation = Reparation.
Yes, there is a race problem. Blacks like yourself refuse to move forward. And many misguided young blacks adopt Gangsta culture as a result. And so perpetuate the cycle of blacks being viewed negatively. Blacks do it to themselves, over and over again.
OK, we can throw IQ tests out if you want. Even so, schools full of blacks have the worst education results of all schools. Further, as they act like gansta hoodlums, in integrated schools, they pull down everyone else.
Just look around the Los Angeles school system. Same correlation as everywhere else. Black = decline.
And you'll note, the Haitian poster I was responding to did exactly what whites do... he took flight from Haiti, a free black majority colony for the 400 years of American slavery... and ran to a whiter place.
So essentially intelligent blacks run from black areas too. So guess we should stop calling it "White Flight" and call it what it is, "Flight from Africanized areas".
Until blacks get past the past and move forward, stop hugging the slavery chains and chanting, "400 years of slavery" and "Jim Crow", people will continue to react as they do.
Blacks themselves must move forward for anything to change. The whites fought the civil war over this stuff 150 years ago. Slaverly lost. Now move foreward, or expect to get the same reaction until the black community changes.
Until the crime stats etc. visibly change, people are going to believe thier own eyes and come to the same conclusions they always have.
It's that simple and that hard.
There is no hyperbole, no straw man, just the facts on the ground. Please go back and look at the statistics I've posted several times. There is an strong correlation between black and problems. Correlation isn't causation, but for the average person trying to live their lives without problems... it's a good way to bet.
So folks will, even if they can't say it publicly, continue to try and avoid black areas until they have a good reason not to.
You need to get over the Slavery and Jim Crow thing. Geez, you just as bad a southerners that still fly the Confederate Flag and talk about how Gen. Lee was a better commander than Grant. OK, fine. Lee was the better man. Guess what, The North still won. Same thing you should realize... Slavery and Jim Crow are over. Not only that, but a lot of whites fought and died in the Civil War and died during the early Civil Rights movement over this issue. So far as many whites are concerned, nothing more is owed. Jump up and down all you like (as is typical for blacks, i.e. rioting) but, especially in these economic times, no one wants to hear it anymore. And as the trend toward repealing Affirmative Action shows, folks are in fact, fed up with it.
By all means, please feel free to immigrate to where "white devils" are not. And give us a report on how great it is.
A society becomes wealthy by virtue of being rich in natural resources, being learned and being exploitive. For most of human history survival required working overtime. It required that not only did you work, but also your children and the elderly. This is because most of this human history was agrarian and was labor intensive, because it lacked modern machines and fossil fuel energy to substitute for human energy. Consequently, there was no leisure or educated classes in such egalitarian societies, therefore, those societies did not advance very rapidly.
The societies that did advance rapidly were societies that were not egalitarian, but rather, exploitive and class based. When one segment of the population takes personal ownership of all the productive resources (land) and forces the landless and resource less to work the land in peonage, in slavery, in indentured servitude, in serfdom or whatever, an educated and leisure class arises from that to advance society through learning, experimentation, trade. If not for the exploited class there would be no elite class that spent their time learning for they would have to spend all their time working the land for their survival like everyone else.
My point is that wealth and advancement is highly correlated with exploitation. Indeed, the industrial revolution was financed and built off the backs of profits from the era of slavery and colonization. The imperialism of white nations extended far beyond the borders of white nations. The natural resources of Africa are mainly in the control whites and not that of blacks. When black nations nationalize their resources, the West seeks to destabilize their government in order to get the resources opened up to the free market. Of course these poor nations don’t have the capital in order to compete in a free market and the resource thus falls into the hands of Western nationals.
In conclusion, black nations of the world have been as influenced by whites as have black people living within the USA.
I've been following thread and haven't seen an in depth conversation. I have seen the arguing, which is par for the course on forums, I guess. Closed or not, a new thread will arise to address the topic.
Thus, to be clear, I am not arguing on behalf of white payment, I am simply arguing on behalf of white responsibility for the condition. Its only when whites start talking about "I should not have to pay because....." that I counter their rationale for not having to pay, nothwistanding the fact that I have never argued that they have to pay a cent. Your argument it a red herring.
Imo, this debate is difficult because it crosses over from the sake of argument to reality. In theory, sure, whites can take responsibility, but when addressing the real problems that exist off line and in the day-to-day, it doesn't work. Taking reponsibility implies action (for me at least) and I can't think of any application to employ.
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