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Paskutinis plėÅ¡ikų gaujos narys parskraidintas į Lietuvą (VIDEO ...
13 gegužės 2010 ... Gegužės pradžioje į Lietuvą pargabentas nuo 2007 metų ieÅ¡kotas 1971 metais gimęs AJ, kuris sulaikytas... Naujienos | Balsas.lt
Without dwelling on Rand Paul or what he said or didn't say, the fundamental question is whether a private business, open to the public, should be bound by law to serve any person, regardless of race, color, or religion?
Yes, they should be bound by law to serve everyone whether they are gay, black, or muslim. People are people and should be treated equally. Only a racist bigot would answer no to that question.
Location: An overgrown 350K person suburb of Saint Paul
383 posts, read 901,004 times
Reputation: 248
If you're offering a service to the public, you can't pick and choose who the public is. I can't open up a store in Quebec and then start complaining that nothing but French speakers are in my store. It's stupid, backwards makes little to no business sense. It also does more harm than good to the community and creates divisions in my area.
Also, if my market contains a minority group I don't like and I have a store that's located in that market and I disliked the customers, I should have thought first about opening up a store or service in a place where the general public contains a certain group of people that I don't like.
If a business owner is so adamant about not having a certain group in their store, they should start a private club and only cater their services to members of that club. It works for the Hell's Angels and Country Clubs.
People discriminate, that's what they do. You discriminate everyday, and so do I.
My answer is:
But don't you understand that some forms of discrimination are more intolerable and despicable than others? If I discriminate by not allowing people who wear green shirts into my business they can always change their shirt and obtain entrance. Black people can't change being black, nor should they have too.
You wrote:
It is because I discriminate, that you will never find me in an establishment that plays country music or hip-hop or rap crap. Likewise, you won't find me hanging around people that bowl or play golf, or for that matter, are hung up on sports.
My answer is:
This is a "straw man". You know very well there is a huge difference between not liking country music and entire races of people being unable to obtain food, housing, credit, or medical care. Its a misnomer to call what you do "discriminating". I would simply say you have a preference for different types of music and activities than some others may.
You wrote:
You bought into the liberal diatribe that passing a law is the same as waving a magic wand and making everything all better.
But it didn't happen. What did happen, is open discrimination was driven underground and became subtle, hidden, more difficult to detect.
My answer is:
And you miss the point entirely. When the civil rights laws were passed everyone knew that bigots weren't going to magically disappear. It wasn't the point at all. The point was that whether the owners of businesses liked or hated black people, black people would be able to stay at hotels, buy real estate in all parts of town, and not be denied public accommodations.
If discrimination was driven more underground than I'd argue that these laws largely achieved their purpose. The issue is access to public facilities and accommodations, not converting bigots.
You wrote:
And despite your shock, I'll bet you spend $1000s every year on Coca-Cola products, a company that has a long history of discrimination against women and minorities in hiring, pay and promotions (as proven in three lawsuits in the last 30 years including one recently this century) not to mention the illegal and unethical business practices it has engaged in (and for which it was duly beaten in court).
On the other hand, you wouldn't have found any Coca-Cola products in my home over the last 27 years or so, and I do not purchase them when at a restaurant.
My answer is:
Surprise, surprise, I don't drink any soda pop at all. Gave it up when I started getting kidney stones. Look, I get your point about Coca Cola. It sounds like your life is all about taking "personal moral stands". Good for you. Personal moral stands usually don't accomplish much though unless they involve communities and movements.
I think you misunderstand why this country ended up with Civil Rights laws. We went through a long period where an entire race (sometimes races) were treated as something less than citizens. These people were denied the right to vote. They were denied access to public accommodations. Some even got lynched for standing up for their rights and than the county sheriff never arrested the perpetrators even though he knew who they were. On the other hand, black people were routinely drafted into the armed services to fight in World War II and Korea. It finally reached a point where even the majority of white people in this country saw discrimination and racial segregation for the terrible evil that it was. As a country, we got together and not by mere majority, but by overwhelming consensus passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the Fair Housing Act of 1968.
You wrote:
While I believe businesses have an inherent right to discriminate for any reason, I don't believe that they necessarily ought to discriminate, and you apparently have difficulty grasping the distinction between the two concepts.
My answer is:
And that right can be found where? Not in our Constitution, sir. The Fourteenth Amendment mandates that no person shall be denied the equal protection of the laws. It further gives Congress the power to enforce this amendment by enacting appropriate legislation.
Here's a reality for you libertarian types who believe you have the freedom to discriminate: Your crackerbox notion of "freedom" finds no support within the Constitution. None at all. I wish you people would actually read the Constitution instead of just blathering about it all the time. It would also behoove you to actually study American history. I'm shocked at how many people seem to forget the struggle for civil rights in this country.
If you're offering a service to the public, you can't pick and choose who the public is. I can't open up a store in Quebec and then start complaining that nothing but French speakers are in my store. It's stupid, backwards makes little to no business sense. It also does more harm than good to the community and creates divisions in my area.
Also, if my market contains a minority group I don't like and I have a store that's located in that market and I disliked the customers, I should have thought first about opening up a store or service in a place where the general public contains a certain group of people that I don't like.
If a business owner is so adamant about not having a certain group in their store, they should start a private club and only cater their services to members of that club. It works for the Hell's Angels and Country Clubs.
You're right about one thing, it is a stupid business decision.
But, the government shouldn't be in place to stop people from making stupid decisions, that harm no one physically. If a business owner wants to discriminate, let them, their business will fail.
Most businesses would never discriminate, because they know what would happen. I find it funny, that people who live in states that never really segregated, are telling everyone else about it. I know segregation, I grew up with it, some. I heard the stories of my grandfather and father, and black friends grandparents and parents. Its different when you live in that environment.
You have no idea how far we've come since 1964. People are talking like its just now 1965. Its over 40 years later, and it took about 15 years to really get in place. I remember going into the "white" grocery store in a town close to my home town. I remember going to another town, called skullbone, where if you were black, you were let known "don't be here when the sun goes down".
Those attitudes have changed from most of us. Where at one point in time, it was a 50/50 split between bigots and those that accept others, now its closer to 80/20, with the bigots being in the minority.
Times have changed. I agree that in 1964 the civil rights bill was needed. But, just as affirmative action, the time has come to give power back to the people.
You're right about one thing, it is a stupid business decision.
But, the government shouldn't be in place to stop people from making stupid decisions, that harm no one physically. If a business owner wants to discriminate, let them, their business will fail.
You're overlooking one very simple and obvious point. If all businesses, either through collusion or commonality of policy, made the "stupid decision" to discriminate against a certain category of patrons, none would be harmed. No Alabama restaurant failed in the 1950s because of their "stupid decision" not to serve blacks.
You are talking about giving private merchants the right to exercise a "papers please" policy in Arizona, and refuse to serve anyone who cannot present their papers proving their US legality. That is what Americans want today, the same as segregation was what Americans wanted in the south before 1964. Both are exactly the same civil rights principle.
You're overlooking one very simple and obvious point. If all businesses, either through collusion or commonality of policy, made the "stupid decision" to discriminate against a certain category of patrons, none would be harmed. No Alabama restaurant failed in the 1950s because of their "stupid decision" not to serve blacks.
You are talking about giving private merchants the right to exercise a "papers please" policy in Arizona, and refuse to serve anyone who cannot present their papers proving their US legality. That is what Americans want today, the same as segregation was what Americans wanted in the south before 1964. Both are exactly the same civil rights principle.
I see the Arizona analogy, but the difference is thats a state, and then there are private property owners.
If I want to not allow someone on my property, that should be my decision, not the governments.
My point is, I don't think that a majority, even a simple majority, would discriminate against one ethnic group or another. I feel that only about 20% or less of businesses would do that, and more than likely, those businesses would fail.
Thats why I said, in my first post to this thread, I'd want to see a major study to see if people would discriminate or not, before parts of the civil rights bill were amended.
I'm not stupid enough to believe that all bigotry in this country is dead. However, I feel that its subsided to a level that we can entrust the people back with the power to make their own decision.
I'm optimistic on this outlook, and others are pessimistic on this same subject.
You're overlooking one very simple and obvious point. If all businesses, either through collusion or commonality of policy, made the "stupid decision" to discriminate against a certain category of patrons, none would be harmed. No Alabama restaurant failed in the 1950s because of their "stupid decision" not to serve blacks.
You are talking about giving private merchants the right to exercise a "papers please" policy in Arizona, and refuse to serve anyone who cannot present their papers proving their US legality. That is what Americans want today, the same as segregation was what Americans wanted in the south before 1964. Both are exactly the same civil rights principle.
So you're wanting it to be illegal to NOT serve or employ somebody who is in the United States illegally? Interesting.
Location: An overgrown 350K person suburb of Saint Paul
383 posts, read 901,004 times
Reputation: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979
You're right about one thing, it is a stupid business decision.
But, the government shouldn't be in place to stop people from making stupid decisions, that harm no one physically. If a business owner wants to discriminate, let them, their business will fail.
Most businesses would never discriminate, because they know what would happen. I find it funny, that people who live in states that never really segregated, are telling everyone else about it. I know segregation, I grew up with it, some. I heard the stories of my grandfather and father, and black friends grandparents and parents. Its different when you live in that environment.
You have no idea how far we've come since 1964. People are talking like its just now 1965. Its over 40 years later, and it took about 15 years to really get in place. I remember going into the "white" grocery store in a town close to my home town. I remember going to another town, called skullbone, where if you were black, you were let known "don't be here when the sun goes down".
Those attitudes have changed from most of us. Where at one point in time, it was a 50/50 split between bigots and those that accept others, now its closer to 80/20, with the bigots being in the minority.
Times have changed. I agree that in 1964 the civil rights bill was needed. But, just as affirmative action, the time has come to give power back to the people.
Your collection of anecdotal stories are nice but they fail to address the fact that, if you're offering a service to the public, you're offering it to the public. You don't pick and choose who your public is comprised of.
Your collection of anecdotal stories are nice but they fail to address the fact that, if you're offering a service to the public, you're offering it to the public. You don't pick and choose who your public is comprised of.
I view it differently.
I view it that if I open a business, I reserve the right to refuse business to anyone.
My dad has that sign at his place of business, and I know a lot of people who do.
But, Hotels and Restaurants can't do that, and I believe they should. They bought their land, they paid for the building, its theirs, not the governments, and the government should have no say in what they do with their business.
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