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I was glad to see that Nissan admitted the cost of their battery as in excess of $12,000. Doesn't that make the whole discussion moot?
Of course, Toyota has lied about their battery by listing at $3000 in their parts department but not making it available so that buyers would not realize that they were spending $.10 per mile on a battery before they even turn on the motor. All of these batteries will cost $12000-15000 to replace plus labor when the time comes rendering the 5-7 year old car scrap value unless further government subsidies are in place.
You would think, but some people can't see practical aspects of the issue. They only see the fad of it and rush out emotionally to spend an enormous amount of money to be suckered.
That doesn't even cover the issue with their non-subsidized costs. If they weren't subsidized, those vehicles would never even be put on the market. We need to stop letting people emotionally decide the issue. We should strive for cleaner and more efficient technology, but not at the cost of practical and affordable. We can't sustain this level of waste in expense, it will not be affordable and will carry some extreme consequences down the road.
You would think, but some people can't see practical aspects of the issue. They only see the fad of it and rush out emotionally to spend an enormous amount of money to be suckered.
That doesn't even cover the issue with their non-subsidized costs. If they weren't subsidized, those vehicles would never even be put on the market. We need to stop letting people emotionally decide the issue. We should strive for cleaner and more efficient technology, but not at the cost of practical and affordable. We can't sustain this level of waste in expense, it will not be affordable and will carry some extreme consequences down the road.
Yeah what we really need to do is stop subsidizing the oil and ethanol industries.
Yes the warranty is 8yr/100k but that doesn't mean the battery will just up and quit the very next day. You have no idea how long those batteries will last so stop pretending and doing math based on your pessimistic assumptions.
Also you forgot to factor in the cost savings for EVs in reduced maintenance (no oil changes and no transmission that could fail) as well as the savings in fuel.
You would think, but some people can't see practical aspects of the issue. They only see the fad of it and rush out emotionally to spend an enormous amount of money to be suckered.
That doesn't even cover the issue with their non-subsidized costs. If they weren't subsidized, those vehicles would never even be put on the market. We need to stop letting people emotionally decide the issue. We should strive for cleaner and more efficient technology, but not at the cost of practical and affordable. We can't sustain this level of waste in expense, it will not be affordable and will carry some extreme consequences down the road.
These battery vehicles are pure crap. What they really are is a fashion accessory. If you have enough money that it really doesn't matter, but you want to look really "green" these are the cars. Everything about the design is wrong. Not only do they make no economic sense by any measure, they employ a whole new set of scarce natural resources only avilable from foreign countries and which are not environmentally friendly in their old age. I am referring of course to the Lithium manganate.
I suppose that car makers are enthusiastic about these new vehicles because they will end the used car market. How could there be when the batteries cost more than the value of the then well used car?
Yeah what we really need to do is stop subsidizing the oil and ethanol industries.
I don't think we should be subsidizing any of that. Ethanol is another stupid emotional direction that makes no sense. It tears up vehicles fast and it is not a sustainable technology alternative as it has severe consequences in other areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by verybadgnome
Yes the warranty is 8yr/100k but that doesn't mean the battery will just up and quit the very next day. You have no idea how long those batteries will last so stop pretending and doing math based on your pessimistic assumptions.
I didn't say they would stop working the next day. I said it is a stupid investment concerning them. First, vehicles are already far overpriced and people stupidly pay unreasonable prices already for them. A 100k miles warranty is beyond unreasonable even if it fully lasts that amount.
They have estimated the cost of the packs to be around 10-24k for replacement. That puts the price of the batteries at near the price of the car in ONLY 100k miles. Here is another problem. The cars won't go for the price they are listed at. Just like the previous electric cars, they will retail far above their "marketed" price. Which means you will dump a ton of money on a vehicle and then after a 100k miles you will turn around a dump a ton of money more.
As I said, only a fool who has no concept of value would buy into that. I also didn't even get into the real costs before subsidies which makes these vehicles an fad hyped hunk of garbage primed for the extremely stupid or the extremely rich looking to buy their environmental status.
As for batteries, anyone with a bit of physics and math knows that life times of batteries "rated" are for ideal environments and their "mileage" will vary depending on location and climate. So the result is that while the battery may last its warranty in the mild even temperature climates, they will not in the volatile climates. How do I know this? because I replace my battery 2-3 times as much in Texas as I did in California.
So before you go off half-cocked in defense, it helps if you come back with a little more logic and reasoning other than an insult and a response that does nothing to answer to the issue brought up. If it upsets you that your green innovations are a waste of effort and simply a political money scam to herd sheepish idiots into their consumer rounds, then maybe stop defending crap products simply because they have a stupid "green" label on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by verybadgnome
Also you forgot to factor in the cost savings for EVs in reduced maintenance (no oil changes and no transmission that could fail) as well as the savings in fuel.
Go ahead, do the math. You are wrong, but if you need to prove that to yourself, knock yourself out, it will be interesting to see how you attempt to "work the numbers" to achieve your savings.
These battery vehicles are pure crap. What they really are is a fashion accessory. If you have enough money that it really doesn't matter, but you want to look really "green" these are the cars. Everything about the design is wrong. Not only do they make no economic sense by any measure, they employ a whole new set of scarce natural resources only avilable from foreign countries and which are not environmentally friendly in their old age. I am referring of course to the Lithium manganate.
I suppose that car makers are enthusiastic about these new vehicles because they will end the used car market. How could there be when the batteries cost more than the value of the then well used car?
Yep. Its because they were never ready for market. These are all failed ideas on the books of the car manufactures that they are throwing out now because its on the governments dime.
People think they are getting savings too, but they never do the math to see how much of a sucker deal it is. /sigh
Yes the warranty is 8yr/100k but that doesn't mean the battery will just up and quit the very next day. You have no idea how long those batteries will last so stop pretending and doing math based on your pessimistic assumptions.
The battery is expected to last as little as 5 years or as long as 10 years. They are hoping it last 8 years on average so that's what they warranty it for. Nissan does not expect it to last a day beyond 10 years and they don't expect most to last 9 years. They do hope that what they spend on warrenty replacement up to the 8 years will be made up by the high cost consumers will have to pay after that time. That's all in Nissan's dealer marketing kit.
The battery is expected to last as little as 5 years or as long as 10 years. They are hoping it last 8 years on average so that's what they warranty it for. Nissan does not expect it to last a day beyond 10 years and they don't expect most to last 9 years. They do hope that what they spend on warrenty replacement up to the 8 years will be made up by the high cost consumers will have to pay after that time. That's all in Nissan's dealer marketing kit.
When you are selling your Leaf with 115k miles and the battery is then costing what is the real price of $24,000 to replace and is out of warranty, best of luck.
When you are selling your Leaf with 115k miles and the battery is then costing what is the real price of $24,000 to replace and is out of warranty, best of luck.
Yep, and compare that to the longevity of gas vehicles and their expense over time. There will be no 200-300k mile leafs where good maintenance and proper use allowed the owner to obtain "some" reasonable return on their expense. We know vehicles for the most part are a wasted expense, but if someone shops the right manufacturer and model, and takes good care of it, it is not unreasonable for them to get that longevity out of the vehicle without major expenses.
The leaf hitting that range will already have doubled or tippled the price of the vehicle making the expense a foolish waste and money pit far more than a vehicle already is. But hey, whats money when you can wake up each morning and "feel" good about saving the planet! /boggle
The Leaf harms the planet because it increases the cost of driving. Those costs are not just numbers on paper, they reflect the consumption of energy, raw materials and the disposal of waste materials. In any capitalistic society (or close to) if the product costs more, it is eco-UNfriendly. This is especially true for the stupid electric cars, but equally true for the subsidy necessary for wind energy, ethanol, recycled plastics, organic foods, light rail subsidy (ranging as high as $20/trip/person in some systems) etc.
Any time you see higher costs when subsidies are included you have eco-waste. And, despite the groupie applause, environmental harm.
But, this is not a science experiment we are witnessing with these electric cars, it is a religious exercise.
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