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I could not agree more. I like the 9mm for a plinking cartridge, but I think in today's day and age, we can do better. I have never had the opportunity to fire a hi-power, but from what I hear they are fantastic.
I would love for them to move over to the Glock. They are very reliable, and lightweight. I personally carry a Glock 32 in .357 Sig every day.
Lots of Glock's in the sand-box. However, it will never work for main issue because the military DEMANDS an external safety that is thumb operated. It's been a part of every pistol selection program criteria since the 1911 that I am aware of.
The 9mm has been proven to work pretty much as well (or as poorly, as all pistols do...) as anything.
I spoke extensively with MD Roberts about the 357SIG a few years ago, and gained no headway championing it. His experience with the 357 Magnum firing 125gr JHP from 4" barrel ballistically mirrors most 357SIG duty loads, and the OIS's he compiled and operated on, and observed showed no favor for it over quality 147gr 9mm JHP. Can't argue with real-world results. (Interestingly, TX DPS has gone from the .45, to the 357SIG, and is now dumping it for the 9mm. http://www.khou.com/news/texas-news/...237020891.html ) The FBI is also looking to be transitioning back to the 9mm from their trip to the 10mm, .40 S&W.
Any projectile under about 17-1800fps is going to only destroy the tissue it touches, and an FMJ round destroys only about 66% of its total diameter in tissue. The damage of the wound does not extend past the immediate wound at this velocity. What this practically means is that if you poke a hole in something valuable, at this level of damage that means the heart, aorta, pulmonary artery, femoral, brachial, or CNS, and a .355" vs .451" projectile won't matter, as either will have a similar effect on those targets, and neither will do much more or less than the other on muscle tissue. However, the 9mm is more prone to penetrate hard things than a .45, making it better against cheap 3rd world "flak jackets" and theoretically less likely to bounce off of a skull, in my opinion, based on having shot hard things with it and the .45, such as car-doors, autos, etc.
Lots of Glock's in the sand-box. However, it will never work for main issue because the military DEMANDS an external safety that is thumb operated. It's been a part of every pistol selection program criteria since the 1911 that I am aware of.
The 9mm has been proven to work pretty much as well (or as poorly, as all pistols do...) as anything.
I spoke extensively with MD Roberts about the 357SIG a few years ago, and gained no headway championing it. His experience with the 357 Magnum firing 125gr JHP from 4" barrel ballistically mirrors most 357SIG duty loads, and the OIS's he compiled and operated on, and observed showed no favor for it over quality 147gr 9mm JHP. Can't argue with real-world results. (Interestingly, TX DPS has gone from the .45, to the 357SIG, and is now dumping it for the 9mm. Texas DPS switching service pistols for troopers | khou.com Houston ) The FBI is also looking to be transitioning back to the 9mm from their trip to the 10mm, .40 S&W.
Any projectile under about 17-1800fps is going to only destroy the tissue it touches, and an FMJ round destroys only about 66% of its total diameter in tissue. The damage of the wound does not extend past the immediate wound at this velocity. What this practically means is that if you poke a hole in something valuable, at this level of damage that means the heart, aorta, pulmonary artery, femoral, brachial, or CNS, and a .355" vs .451" projectile won't matter, as either will have a similar effect on those targets, and neither will do much more or less than the other on muscle tissue. However, the 9mm is more prone to penetrate hard things than a .45, making it better against cheap 3rd world "flak jackets" and theoretically less likely to bounce off of a skull, in my opinion, based on having shot hard things with it and the .45, such as car-doors, autos, etc.
The 357 Sig is an...interesting..cartridge. Potent little bugger. Steel plate competition clubs here have banned it for use. Just like the 357 mag, of any other magnum loads. They break and destroy expensive steel arrays. Lmao. I still think it would be a great SMG round. Or pistol caliber carbine. I'd put the 10mm on that same list of candidates for that application. Either could be readily adapted to an AR style platform, or even something like the HK MP5 Either would be wicked tools.
True story with the military and the external safety. The want an exposed hammer as well. That narrows the field connsiderably . For existing, production ready designs. The current Berretta, Sig, Ruger, perhaps Walter and a smattering of others. I would like to be a casual observer of the trials. Being one of the test shooters would be better though.. All manner of pistols, in all manner of calibers, warehouses full of ammo and a license to try and make the guns stop working by burning up all that ammo. Hmmmmm. What a drag..yea? Lol
The Marines have already gone back to the 1911 in .45 ACP. I have never even owned a gun in .45 ACP, so I'm not a fan of the caliber--I lean to 9mm and .357 Sig. However, if you are limited to ball ammo only, I think the .45 ACP does make sense.
Handgun selection should be low on the priority list for the DOD. The priority should be replacement of the 5.56/.223 round and M4 rifle.
The Marines have already gone back to the 1911 in .45 ACP. I have never even owned a gun in .45 ACP, so I'm not a fan of the caliber--I lean to 9mm and .357 Sig. However, if you are limited to ball ammo only, I think the .45 ACP does make sense.
Handgun selection should be low on the priority list for the DOD. The priority should be replacement of the 5.56/.223 round and M4 rifle.
The Marines have already gone back to the 1911 in .45 ACP.
They barely left it. The Marines were the last service to get 9mm--it was 'way into the 90s before their trickle began, and I suspect they were never fully equipped.
But the problem with the government 1911 is that the last frame the government bought was in 1945. Yes, if the Marines are using any 1911 guns, they are at least that old. I'm sure there are decent gunsmiths handling them, and parts are available, but old is old.
They barely left it. The Marines were the last service to get 9mm--it was 'way into the 90s before their trickle began, and I suspect they were never fully equipped.
But the problem with the government 1911 is that the last frame the government bought was in 1945. Yes, if the Marines are using any 1911 guns, they are at least that old. I'm sure there are decent gunsmiths handling them, and parts are available, but old is old.
Parts for keeping 1911s running strong are in huge supply, and many new parts are a repair/upgrade in one part. If there were teams of dedicated admirers/gunsmiths tasked with upgrading in service 1911s these could be top shelf pistols for on the cheap, as cheap as it gets with DoD, anyway.
As long as the frames and slides are still solid, putting the rest together isn't hard, and the end result would be a nice, modern , combat type 1911. All it would take is for the powers that be to select an upgrade/rebuild blueprint, get the parts and task and schedule the work. To simple to DoD though. Having had a bellyful of DoD, I will say, they can mess up a wet dream.
Nevertheless, since these refits aren't meant for use at Camp Perry, and a decent center mass grouping of shots is all that's needed, slicking up the still in service 1911s is totally feasible. Matter of fact, if they want to just let me have a couple of those old Colts or Remington Rands, buy the parts and maybe a couple cool tools, I'd be happy to ...demonstrate. lmao....of course I get to keep the guns after the live fire trials.
Interesting. Why do you have such a certainty about that? I'm not very familiar with that pistol. I believe that the troops would be happier with 45s over the 9s but this NATO thing has been a sticking point. From my house, screw NATO. We aren't fighting alongside NATO troops that much, and those we are we pretty much supply from our logistics chain. I say they can get used to packing 45s.
I agree with an earlier poster that a replacement for the M4 is needed as well. An AR variant in 7.62x51 would be easy to work in. They are even available in rifles that are not any more cumbersome than the M4 as well. Personally, I would feel better with a 308 primary and a 13 shot 45 backup over a 223/9 combo, were I hunting fanatical jihadists hopped up on opium. This rather brings the argument about aimed fire vs area fire up, as well. I'm a firm believer in placing the bullet where it needs to go. Light caliber, light recoiling high capacity weapons have a tendency to make operators "spray and pray". Its a BAD habit to be in. And a worse one to enable and encourage.
Round D's expended that hit nothing are an unforgivable waste if they are just fired because they are available. In examining the 9vs45, it can be noted that the 45 is capable of firing more bullet weights and styles than just 230 Ball The 180, 185 and 200 gr flat points can be driven at impressive velocities quite safely a d have racked up some equally impressive results. It is a far more versatile round than the 9mm, for both velocity and range of bullet weights and with that in mind, a couple rounds of mag capacity doesn't seem like much of a detriment.
The 45 can use bullets from as low as 160 grs, and as high as 250. I have experimented with them all, with many different propellants, with quite pleasing results in all applications.Serious velocities with lighter bullets are easily obtained, quite safely, with powders like Blue Dot. When looking at a transition back to 45 from 9, it pays to remember that the 45 has benefitted greatly from new technology just as the 9 has. With better results, IMHO.
Interesting. Why do you have such a certainty about that? I'm not very familiar with that pistol. I believe that the troops would be happier with 45s over the 9s but this NATO thing has been a sticking point. From my house, screw NATO. We aren't fighting alongside NATO troops that much, and those we are we pretty much supply from our logistics chain. I say they can get used to packing 45s.
I'm a fan of the .45 ACP myself, but I'm an old guy--when I was a kid, we were still pretending we were flying B-17 and driving Pattons and Shermans.
A whole generation of soldiers has gone into the military and retired since the 9mm was introduced into the military. The 9mm isn't a European round anymore (or a "Nazibullet" as I used to call it). It's been thoroughly civilianized and Americanized. Most police forces use them, more civilians shoot 9mm than .45 ACP.
Most soldiers are not handgun aficionados--they just want whatever will be easier to qualify with, and so will the decisionmakers. The 9mm has not proven to be a combat disaster, and without a proven combat disaster, the organization is not likely to change.
Interesting. Why do you have such a certainty about that? I'm not very familiar with that pistol. I believe that the troops would be happier with 45s over the 9s but this NATO thing has been a sticking point. From my house, screw NATO. We aren't fighting alongside NATO troops that much, and those we are we pretty much supply from our logistics chain. I say they can get used to packing 45s.
I agree with an earlier poster that a replacement for the M4 is needed as well. An AR variant in 7.62x51 would be easy to work in. They are even available in rifles that are not any more cumbersome than the M4 as well. Personally, I would feel better with a 308 primary and a 13 shot 45 backup over a 223/9 combo, were I hunting fanatical jihadists hopped up on opium. This rather brings the argument about aimed fire vs area fire up, as well. I'm a firm believer in placing the bullet where it needs to go. Light caliber, light recoiling high capacity weapons have a tendency to make operators "spray and pray". Its a BAD habit to be in. And a worse one to enable and encourage.
Round D's expended that hit nothing are an unforgivable waste if they are just fired because they are available. In examining the 9vs45, it can be noted that the 45 is capable of firing more bullet weights and styles than just 230 Ball The 180, 185 and 200 gr flat points can be driven at impressive velocities quite safely a d have racked up some equally impressive results. It is a far more versatile round than the 9mm, for both velocity and range of bullet weights and with that in mind, a couple rounds of mag capacity doesn't seem like much of a detriment.
The 45 can use bullets from as low as 160 grs, and as high as 250. I have experimented with them all, with many different propellants, with quite pleasing results in all applications.Serious velocities with lighter bullets are easily obtained, quite safely, with powders like Blue Dot. When looking at a transition back to 45 from 9, it pays to remember that the 45 has benefitted greatly from new technology just as the 9 has. With better results, IMHO.
FN does a lot of military contracts, the FNX 45 was built specifically for the U.S, but they abandoned the test and put off replacing the sidearm for some political reason. The FNX is a magnificent pistol, 15 rounds of .45 with an overall weight similar to a 1911, light recoil, ability to mount a red dot sight on the slide and the "tactical" version comes with a threaded barrel for suppressors. It will either be the FNX or a Sig imo.
As for the .308, SOCOM already uses the SCAR 17.
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. All manner of pistols, in all manner of calibers, warehouses full of ammo and a license to try and make the guns stop working by burning up all that ammo. Hmmmmm. What a drag..yea? Lol
