Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
There were no logistical navigational issues with the SuperFerry. The ship was of the same design as the one that runs through the Straits of Gibraltar, a classically horrendous crossing.
The SF was trashed by Linda Lingle's idiocy and the misguided "green" raging of mostly-mainland-transplant folks who wanted to "KEEP (BLANK) (BLANK)!!!!!"
I heard nothing but good things from locals. They LOVED being able to pack up their cars and go inter-island to visit relatives, bringing gifts, dogs, etc. Hula halau, sports teams...
I precepted several EMT's from the outer islands who were totally pissed when the SF went under. They had to come here for extended training. They would have loved to have been able to have brought their cars to Oahu on the SF. Instead, they ended up having to buy cheap-s**t cars just to have transportation here.
I am talking about actual Kauai natives (REAL natives, born and bred) that I have personally spoken to. One after another after another after another. I am in a position where I deal with many people from the outer islands on a regular basis and yes, we talk about such things.
They ALL wanted the ferry and, being typically reticent REAL locals, didn't express their feelings when it mattered.
The mainland transplants took over. The "KEEP KAUI KAUI" jack****s. They moved to Kauai for a reason and they wanted to keep what they came there for.
I have heard nothing but anger from Kauai natives since the SF was trashed.
Before you get angry - so your ALL wanted the ferry is you personal experience - don't be angry - that is ok. Just wondering.
Before you get angry - so your ALL wanted the ferry is you personal experience - don't be angry - that is ok. Just wondering.
I guess we all just go with our personal experiences, after all. Mine involve very local people. People who end up on Oahu for various reasons. In that sense I suppose the opinions might be a bit skewed---they have traveled, for whatever reason, to another island and realize how the lack of interisland travel options have impacted them.
Again (!)---not angry. I have no interest in anger, honestly. Just discussing. This is a message board, a forum for discussion, a place to express opinions.
IMHO there is really no need to label any of the opinions expressed here. Interaction is nice but the judgment stuff...not so much.
Generally, the issues surrounding the Hawaii Superferry can be summarized as follows:
• Procedural concerns. The Hawai'i State Supreme Court ruled that Gov. Lingle illegally exempted the Hawaii Superferry from an EIS and later ruled that the special law exempting it was unconstitutional.[16]
• Environmental concerns. These can generally be divided into concerns for marine life (primarily due to the speed of travel, which critics cited as unnecessarily high and dangerous to whales, dolphins, turtles and other animals) and concern for the environmental impacts threatened by the virtually unrestricted interisland transport of vehicles, particularly by O'ahu residents engaged in recreational activities. Interisland introduction of invasive species is a specific concern.
• Depletion of natural resources. This is a related concern particularly felt by Maui and Kaua'i residents who are concerned about people from O'ahu taking large quantities of rocks,[17] 'opihi, and other natural resources for O'ahu use.
• Militarization. It is pointed out that the Superferry's CEO, John F. Lehman, is a former U.S. Navy secretary whose expertise is in the acquisition of private endeavors with military applications,[18] and that the Superferry is designed to be able to transport military equipment and vehicles, including Stryker combat vehicles.[19]
•Traffic Congestion. Due to the size of the state and lack of roads and other improvements on the outer islands, traffic expanding to these areas is a concern.
Generally, the issues surrounding the Hawaii Superferry can be summarized as follows:
• Procedural concerns. The Hawai'i State Supreme Court ruled that Gov. Lingle illegally exempted the Hawaii Superferry from an EIS and later ruled that the special law exempting it was unconstitutional.[16]
• Environmental concerns. These can generally be divided into concerns for marine life (primarily due to the speed of travel, which critics cited as unnecessarily high and dangerous to whales, dolphins, turtles and other animals) and concern for the environmental impacts threatened by the virtually unrestricted interisland transport of vehicles, particularly by O'ahu residents engaged in recreational activities. Interisland introduction of invasive species is a specific concern.
• Depletion of natural resources. This is a related concern particularly felt by Maui and Kaua'i residents who are concerned about people from O'ahu taking large quantities of rocks,[17] 'opihi, and other natural resources for O'ahu use. • Militarization. It is pointed out that the Superferry's CEO, John F. Lehman, is a former U.S. Navy secretary whose expertise is in the acquisition of private endeavors with military applications,[18] and that the Superferry is designed to be able to transport military equipment and vehicles, including Stryker combat vehicles.[19]
•Traffic Congestion. Due to the size of the state and lack of roads and other improvements on the outer islands, traffic expanding to these areas is a concern.
Eisenhower gained an appreciation of the German Autobahn network as a necessary component of a national defense system while he was serving as Supreme Commander of the Allied forces in Europe during World War II.[7] He recognized that the proposed system would also provide key ground transport routes for military supplies and troop deployments in case of an emergency or foreign invasion.
and
Quote:
As one of the components of the National Highway System, Interstate Highways improve the mobility of military troops to and from airports, seaports, rail terminals, and other military bases. Interstate Highways also connect to other roads that are a part of the Strategic Highway Network, a system of roads identified as critical to the U.S. Department of Defense.[24]
So why would transport of military equipment and vehicles, including Stryker combat vehicles not be a good use of a ferry system in time of need?
Hawaii waters are definitely different from Alaska coastal waters and NC's Intracoastal waterway. Gibraltar might be open ocean with big currents, but it's only 9 miles wide and 3000 feet deep. The Ka'ie'ie Waho channel between O'ahu and Kaua'i is 75 miles and over 11,000 deep. But in the end, it was the rough seas around Maui that seemed the scariest, as seen in this video:
It's been said that the ferry system in the Canary islands is the most similar. But there have been increased reports of whale strikes due to that ferry, and I don't know that they have whale calving grounds as we do in HI--and which the HI ferry inisted on plowing right through. As for a state-run system, Alaska has oil revenue and cheap fuel that Hawaii doesn't. A few tourists might take the ferry, but airplanes are quicker for them, and they're already renting cars.
PaliPatty, you did sound angry, bleeping out your words, mispelling names, apparently deleting a post, and then going off about labeling opinions. And the whole "locals not expressing their feelings" goes both ways: how do you know there weren't a lot of silent locals who opposed the ferry? As you said, the ones you see on O'ahu are the ones who would benefit from a ferry, so that's a biased sample.
As whtviper1 mentions, the ferry had a lot of local opposition on Kaua'i, not just mainland transplants. The surfers I saw in the water were mostly local boys (and girls). The outrigger canoe that came and gave support was the local paddling club. And the Polynesian Kingdom of Atooi folks that were protesting the ferry are about as Hawaiian as you can get.
NorthStarDelight, the ferries were already fast ferries, covering 70-90 miles in 3 hours. They had gas turbine engines and burned more fuel than an airplane making the same crossing (but of course, they carried more cargo). The whole fuel usage is important, because it means they couldn't keep prices much cheaper than similar airfare, so there goes most of the advantage. Cars were around $60 each way, meaning that you'd have to stay a week to make it worth bringing your own instead of renting. For longer term car usage, like PaliPatty's trainees, you can still use one of the car shippers--that's gotta be cheaper than buying, registering, and insuring a second car.
A lot of the arguments about how the ferry was supposed to benefit the neighbor islands were bogus. Shopping might be a bit cheaper on O'ahu, but not enough to justify the ferry ticket. Plus, the schedule was totally geared towards O'ahu residents taking a weekend on the neighor islands, not the other way around (your choices for leaving O'ahu were Sunday morning or Monday morning). The whole family, friends, sports teams argument works only if they live on O'ahu, because if you thought stopovers in HNL were a pain when flying, they were impossible with the ferry schedule (overnight and leave the next day is just not feasible when you can fly in half a day).
Of course, then there were all the environmental concerns that were never really addressed (thanks to McFrostyJ for posting them). As for militarization of the ferries themselves, it wasn't a question of having them in the islands for some unlikely invasion scenario, it was to have a military transport contract for facilitating and expanding military exercises on the Big Island. A lot of locals were against that, especially since it was recently found that the military had lied about using depleted uranium on the Big Island gunnery ranges.
mokeanne wrote: "someone was getting paid off by young brothers." Got any proof? While I'm sure the ferry was creating competition for the existing inter-island cargo companies, the opposition to the ferry that I saw was pure grass-roots activism based on environmental and social issues. On the other hand, campaign contributions to the governor (Lingle) and legislators from the ferry company are a matter of public record
To get into the politics of it, Lingle wasn't even ram-rodding this thing through for the money. The ferry company was owned by Lehman, who also owned a shipyard that wanted to sell boats to the Navy. The ferry in HI was a way to purchase and test the boats at the tax-payer's expense (the state spent $40 million to create docks for the private company). Contrary to regular practice, the boat loans were guaranteed by the federal government, so when the company had to shut down, the feds repo'd the boats and they were delivered to the Navy.
The theory is that Lingle wanted national prominence by helping a key player in the right-wing military-industrial complex. It worked for her because she was briefly considered for VP before Palin got the nomination. But the way she ordered her transportaiton chief to ignore the state laws for environmental review was flat out illegal, as the state supreme court later ruled. So she had the legislature (dominated by O'ahu representatives) create a law to exempt the ferry, which the supreme court again ruled was unconstitutional.
Even the ferry opponents recognize that having a cheaper way to get between islands would be good for people. But you can't have a cheap way that is as fast as the airplanes. The fast ferry had environmental issues, just as moving cars between island has issues. A smaller, slower people and cargo ferry might be the solution.
I precepted several EMT's from the outer islands who were totally pissed when the SF went under. They had to come here for extended training. They would have loved to have been able to have brought their cars to Oahu on the SF. Instead, they ended up having to buy cheap-s**t cars just to have transportation here.
Not true. You could then, and still can barge your car from island to island. It's not cheap, not fast, and you can't travel with it, but it's definitely doable. Last time I looked (a while back) it was about $100 Hilo to Oahu, and a kinda next day type schedule.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
