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When you remove the small geographic area of all our major cities, I am pretty comfortable where the rest of the United States stack up to other nations in regards to violent crimes.
Yup, being the vast majority of homicides by firearm is related to gang violence in our inner cities and I don’t know many gang members who lawfully obtain a firearm.
So what is the liberal solution? I’m all ears and open minded.
You have stated that you are a multiple gun owner and support the Second Amendment, so what is your solution to gun related suicide, accidental discharge deaths, and gang gun violence?
Truth is the gun debate is a complicated one with no real solutions to prevent gun violence. You can dismiss the stats that homicide by firearm has decreased while gun ownership has increased, but I believe the stats you base your argument off of includes accidental discharges and suicide. You take away those two statistics and gang related gun violence, considering all the guns that are in America, we have a minimal gun violence issue.
The left can argue up and down all they like and fight all they want to remove the Second Amendment, but it is not happening. The people have the God given right to defend themselves, their family, and property. It is not the governments Constitutional obligation to provide each individual with private security. Police are not obligated to protect you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
When you remove the small geographic area of all our major cities, I am pretty comfortable where the rest of the United States stack up to other nations in regards to violent crimes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
Yup, being the vast majority of homicides by firearm is related to gang violence in our inner cities and I don’t know many gang members who lawfully obtain a firearm.
So what is the liberal solution? I’m all ears and open minded.
Need to point out, quickly, before this thread gets closed or moved, that we aren't litigating "Gun Rights in America" as a generic issue ... or shouldn't be anyway ... not in the Hawaii forum. "Gun Rights in America" as a stand alone topic is for the Politics or Current Events Forum. What makes the generic parts of that issue relevant to Hawaii is "how is it of value for Hawaii to change its CCW laws?".
And the answer is: it isn't. And the reason is: because Hawaii already enjoys the nation's lowest gun violence rate - nearly 4x lower than the average state rate. And the reason for that is clearly proven through well over a hundred credible academic studies that demonstrate, complete with verifiable statistics, that 'More Guns = More Gun Violence".
And not a single credible study challenges those findings.
You have once again politicized your position ... which is both telling ... and irrelevant. It doesn't make any difference whether right or left politics supports the truth. Truth stands on its own as the only merit. Hawaii is best without arming its residents and visitors.
Period.
As to my personal suggestion for solutions to gun violence? Yes, I own multiple firearms. I even have a CCW permit for one of the two mainland states I split my time in along with my time in Hawaii. Doesn't mean I like guns. I grew up with guns of my own since I was younger than ten. It was part of the culture of hunting I was raised in. I was trained later to use them in military service. I haven't used or carried any of them since I don't remember when ... years and decades ago. I am a bow hunter now. Not overly focused on supporting gun laws ... but if they were outlawed altogether I'd gladly turn mine in without a thought to my safety. As you say, why would I waste my life in fear of a low probability event - especially when there are so many high probability dangers around us all daily? I don't belong to any gangs and don't deal drugs in gang neighborhoods. Etc. I don't smoke or eat ***t food for similar reasons: it's not healthy or wise.
And I enjoy Hawaii being relatively gun-free. You want to move to Hawaii or even just visit? Fine. Leave your damn guns on the mainland along with your unsupportable arguments favoring them. Thanks.
... I believe the stats you base your argument off of includes accidental discharges and suicide. You take away those two statistics and gang related gun violence, considering all the guns that are in America, we have a minimal gun violence issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
When you remove the small geographic area of all our major cities, I am pretty comfortable where the rest of the United States stack up to other nations in regards to violent crimes.
By the way, I see you either don't know the meaning of the word 'specious', or at least don't understand it any more than you previously misused 'logic' in other posts. You haven't used the term 'specious', but you certainly are being flagrently so in your recent arguments. It doesn't work.
The left can argue up and down all they like and fight all they want to remove the Second Amendment, but it is not happening. The people have the God given right to defend themselves, their family, and property. It is not the governments Constitutional obligation to provide each individual with private security. Police are not obligated to protect you.
Sorry. I must have missed where god only granted the right to defend one's self to Americans ... using firearms. What about the other 6+ billion folks elsewhere around the world in the majority of the planet without the "god given" rights of gun ownership similar to the US?
Or has god somehow disfavored Hawaii by restricting gun purchasing, ownership, and CCW rights? The result of low gun violence in the state is a punishment?.
Need to point out, quickly, before this thread gets closed or moved, that we aren't litigating "Gun Rights in America" as a generic issue ... or shouldn't be anyway ... not in the Hawaii forum. "Gun Rights in America" as a stand alone topic is for the Politics or Current Events Forum. What makes the generic parts of that issue relevant to Hawaii is "how is it of value for Hawaii to change its CCW laws?".
And the answer is: it isn't. And the reason is: because Hawaii already enjoys the nation's lowest gun violence rate - nearly 4x lower than the average state rate. And the reason for that is clearly proven through well over a hundred credible academic studies that demonstrate, complete with verifiable statistics, that 'More Guns = More Gun Violence".
And not a single credible study challenges those findings.
You have once again politicized your position ... which is both telling ... and irrelevant. It doesn't make any difference whether right or left politics supports the truth. Truth stands on its own as the only merit. Hawaii is best without arming its residents and visitors.
Period.
As to my personal suggestion for solutions to gun violence? Yes, I own multiple firearms. I even have a CCW permit for one of the two mainland states I split my time in along with my time in Hawaii. Doesn't mean I like guns. I grew up with guns of my own since I was younger than ten. It was part of the culture of hunting I was raised in. I was trained later to use them in military service. I haven't used or carried any of them since I don't remember when ... years and decades ago. I am a bow hunter now. Not overly focused on supporting gun laws ... but if they were outlawed altogether I'd gladly turn mine in without a thought to my safety. As you say, why would I waste my life in fear of a low probability event - especially when there are so many high probability dangers around us all daily? I don't belong to any gangs and don't deal drugs in gang neighborhoods. Etc. I don't smoke or eat ***t food for similar reasons: it's not healthy or wise.
And I enjoy Hawaii being relatively gun-free. You want to move to Hawaii or even just visit? Fine. Leave your damn guns on the mainland along with your unsupportable arguments favoring them. Thanks.
I agree that this debate did take a turn and did evolve more into gun rights in general for America. Hawai‘i I believe is a different place with a different culture, but is not a microcosm or even a good example as an argument against guns compared to the rest of the nation. I stand by the fact outside of of suicide, accidental discharge (which results in extremely low deaths and injury), and gang violence (which accounts for most of the gun violence), the vast minority of Americans enjoy their right to carry with extremely low actual homicide violence. I respect Hawaii’s decision in their strict gun policies and that is the choice and right of the people who reside there. If carrying a firearm is very important to you, maybe Hawai‘i is not a good place to move to.
I would never support the American people being forced to the turning in of our firearms for a more powerful government is a more dangerous threat than any gang. That is way too much power for a government who cannot promise to protect you. The left believes the government can provide all things where I believe the government on many levels is inept. We have a Second Amendment for a reason and our Founders envisioned a government that governs, not rules. A government that rules is a dangerous one that attempts to take up roles that goes beyond limited functions. It is for the most part for the individual to protect themselves and that is why Law abiding citizens has the right to bear arms. The police cannot protect you and are not obligated to and neither can the government. It is up to the individual to protect themselves, their family, and their property.
The Founders understood that those who hold political power will almost always strive to reduce the freedom of those they rule and that many of the ruled will always be tempted to trade their liberty for empty promises of security. The causes of these political phenomena are sown in the nature of man.
The Second Amendment will never be repealed, and the left, even though they want to repeal the Second Amendment, they won’t dare to say it. They know as well as we that it is political suicide. We Americans are too damn stubborn to allow it.
Location: not sure, but there's a hell of a lot of water around here!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
So what is the liberal solution? I’m all ears and open minded.
The Hawaii solution is to leave the existing gun laws in place. There is no solution needed to begin with, seeing as there is no problem. If that is unsatisfactory to you, then DON'T MOVE HERE.
I agree that this debate did take a turn and did evolve more into gun rights in general for America. Hawai‘i I believe is a different place with a different culture, but is not a microcosm or even a good example as an argument against guns compared to the rest of the nation. I stand by the fact outside of of suicide, accidental discharge (which results in extremely low deaths and injury), and gang violence (which accounts for most of the gun violence), the vast minority of Americans enjoy their right to carry with extremely low actual homicide violence. I respect Hawaii’s decision in their strict gun policies and that is the choice and right of the people who reside there. If carrying a firearm is very important to you, maybe Hawai‘i is not a good place to move to.
I would never support the American people being forced to the turning in of our firearms for a more powerful government is a more dangerous threat than any gang. That is way too much power for a government who cannot promise to protect you. The left believes the government can provide all things where I believe the government on many levels is inept. We have a Second Amendment for a reason and our Founders envisioned a government that governs, not rules. A government that rules is a dangerous one that attempts to take up roles that goes beyond limited functions. It is for the most part for the individual to protect themselves and that is why Law abiding citizens has the right to bear arms. The police cannot protect you and are not obligated to and neither can the government. It is up to the individual to protect themselves, their family, and their property.
The Founders understood that those who hold political power will almost always strive to reduce the freedom of those they rule and that many of the ruled will always be tempted to trade their liberty for empty promises of security. The causes of these political phenomena are sown in the nature of man.
The Second Amendment will never be repealed, and the left, even though they want to repeal the Second Amendment, they won’t dare to say it. They know as well as we that it is political suicide. We Americans are too damn stubborn to allow it.
I'll note with considerable amusement that you just made the briefest pass at Hawaii relevancy on your way back up to your constitutional, ideological, religious soapbox. Which soapbox you are entirely welcome to - over in the P&OC Forum.
Without any further amusement I will zero in on your repetitious speciousness with regard to removing suicide as an equally destructive aspect of increasing gun violence. As a suicide counselor I assure you that the sound of a single gunshot followed by the clatter of a fallen phone, followed by utter silence is a quite uniqely unforgettable and uneraseable memory for life. Nothing quite like it. The violence of suicide by firearm is the number one choice of those in such despair. It is, like many other suicide paths, very often an impulsive decision. It is 95% effective, first try. There are virtually no mulligans ... whereas the majority of otherwise unsuccessful serious attempts by other means do not result in repeat performances after [successful] intervention.
The devastation of suicide for those loved ones left behind is every bit as great as from homicide. Furthermore, suicide leaves seeds for others in periods of despair - in far greater measure than considerations of homicide. If you think the people of Hawaii are so blissfully happy surfing and sipping beer under swaying palms at beachside that few experience despair and depression over illnesses, losses of love and loved ones, economic pressures, losses of self esteem, and even perceived adolescent slights on social media - you've been watching too many travel VLOGS.
Leave your guns and righteous arguments favoring them at home on the mainland.
Suicide is unquestionably the lonliest and saddest path a soul can take into eternity.
The Hawaii solution is to leave the existing gun laws in place. There is no solution needed to begin with, seeing as there is no problem. If that is unsatisfactory to you, then DON'T MOVE HERE.
Rep button appears to be malfunctioning ... however still works!
The Hawaii solution is to leave the existing gun laws in place. There is no solution needed to begin with, seeing as there is no problem. If that is unsatisfactory to you, then DON'T MOVE HERE.
The conversation evolved into a broader debate that went outside the realm of Hawai‘i. If you were following the conversation it would be apparent to you that I never suggested for Hawai‘i to make their gun laws more lienent.
If I choose to move to Hawai‘i, that is my choice, not yours. We are all individuals unless you see otherwise? Also, if I choose to bring my firearm, I will. If I choose to carry conceal my firearm, I will. Tolerance is a wonderful thing, try it sometime.
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