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Simple answer - Just one of our aircraft carrier fleets can defend and hold off 99% of the worlds armies and absolutely obliterate them in conventional warfare. Some of the big countries might need an extra fleet and a couple B1 bombers.
Now conquering and subjegating the world is another matter.
If the Huns came out of nowhere, the first order of defensive business would be to secure Canada and Mexico. We would need to take absolute and authoritative control of the entire continent, using whatever force necessary, to make sure that there were no land borders that invading and occupying troops could cross. Our defensive perimeter would have to be the seashore.
One of the most interesting things that we would find out would be how willing we are to tolerate collateral damage within our own country. If Anchorage or Miami fell under occupation forces, how many Americans would we be willing to kill to retake the city? This is a consideration that has never arisen in the era of modern mass-destruction weaponry.
I lived in L.A. during the King Riots. I had NO idea how heavily armed my neighbors were until then. I never imagined storekeepers would take to the roofs with weapons to defend their stores. And that's in crunchy granola California.
Heaven help the invader who messes with the Heartland.
I had the opportunity in college to read and study some Russian invasion plans for the US, the basic kind of contingency planning that all nations do. The Soviets were deathly afraid of four things when it came to putting troops in America:
1. The large number of firearms in the country. The Russians estimated that the US possessed enough privately held weapons and ammunition to wage an almost indefinite guerilla war.
2. Urban gangs. The Soviets felt that these groups would band together in the face of an external threat and use their knowledge of the cities, contacts and weaponry to become the nucleus of resistance forces.
3. Motorcycle gangs. The Soviets were very scared of these guys. Heavily armed, highly mobile and they knew the terrain. They expected that motorcycle gangs would be a near constant threat to their supply columns.
4. Hunters. American hunters represent the largest "reserve army" on Earth. They are heavily armed, expert marksmen and are intimately familiar with terrain that is perfect for staging ambushes and gueilla camps.
So, the Soviets pretty much envisioned a scenario where the inner cities were full of united gangs making life hell for any occupying forces. There would be motorcycle gangs criss-crossing the nations highways plundering supply columns at will. Hunters would organize into small bands and make the forests and mountains virtually off limits to any Soviet forces not in full strength. Then they had the image that every grandmom on her front porch would be holding a double barrel ready to put some 00 buck into whatever commie set foot on her land. Yes, the Soviets thought we were pretty bad ass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
If the Huns came out of nowhere, the first order of defensive business would be to secure Canada and Mexico. We would need to take absolute and authoritative control of the entire continent, using whatever force necessary, to make sure that there were no land borders that invading and occupying troops could cross. Our defensive perimeter would have to be the seashore.
One of the most interesting things that we would find out would be how willing we are to tolerate collateral damage within our own country. If Anchorage or Miami fell under occupation forces, how many Americans would we be willing to kill to retake the city? This is a consideration that has never arisen in the era of modern mass-destruction weaponry.
I agree, securing the borders and not giving the invaders a base to launch from is important. That brings it back to your question about the city. The assumption would be that the fallen city was being used as a base for the invaders. In that case, seeing how it is total war, it's lights out. We'd mourn and honor the dead, but I don't think we would blink an eye over doing what had to be done to win.
We'd mourn and honor the dead, but I don't think we would blink an eye over doing what had to be done to win.
Quite a contradistinction, in a war in which losing is not an option. In all our previous wars, when we got tired of the war we could just walk away and tell CNN we had met all our objectives.
It would sort of make us have a little sympathy for the people of Vietnam and Iraq, who enjoyed no such luxury. O, the price of humility.
2. Urban gangs. The Soviets felt that these groups would band together in the face of an external threat and use their knowledge of the cities, contacts and weaponry to become the nucleus of resistance forces.
Very interesting and informative post, Goat. Thanks.
One thing I observed after 9/11: The gang-bangers I knew (and these were hard-core guys) were among the first to go to Walmart and buy American flags to fly. There was a definite patriotic attitude among them which, quite frankly, surprised me.
There were also a large number of homes that I knew for a fact were lived in by illegal aliens flying American flags. Between the illegals and the gang-bangers the Walmart in that neighborhood was out of flags the day after the attacks. These people were p***** that someone dared attack the U.S.
I had the opportunity in college to read and study some Russian invasion plans for the US, the basic kind of contingency planning that all nations do. The Soviets were deathly afraid of four things when it came to putting troops in America:
1. The large number of firearms in the country. The Russians estimated that the US possessed enough privately held weapons and ammunition to wage an almost indefinite guerilla war.
2. Urban gangs. The Soviets felt that these groups would band together in the face of an external threat and use their knowledge of the cities, contacts and weaponry to become the nucleus of resistance forces.
3. Motorcycle gangs. The Soviets were very scared of these guys. Heavily armed, highly mobile and they knew the terrain. They expected that motorcycle gangs would be a near constant threat to their supply columns.
4. Hunters. American hunters represent the largest "reserve army" on Earth. They are heavily armed, expert marksmen and are intimately familiar with terrain that is perfect for staging ambushes and gueilla camps.
So, the Soviets pretty much envisioned a scenario where the inner cities were full of united gangs making life hell for any occupying forces. There would be motorcycle gangs criss-crossing the nations highways plundering supply columns at will. Hunters would organize into small bands and make the forests and mountains virtually off limits to any Soviet forces not in full strength. Then they had the image that every grandmom on her front porch would be holding a double barrel ready to put some 00 buck into whatever commie set foot on her land. Yes, the Soviets thought we were pretty bad ass.
Forget Red Dawn--that scenario would've made an excellent 80s movie... The idea of the Hells Angels teaming up with the Crips and Bloods and rural hunters to take on the Soviet invaders would've been a classic...
Quite a contradistinction, in a war in which losing is not an option. In all our previous wars, when we got tired of the war we could just walk away and tell CNN we had met all our objectives.
It would sort of make us have a little sympathy for the people of Vietnam and Iraq, who enjoyed no such luxury. O, the price of humility.
Well, we haven't fought a war on our own soil since the 1860's. Taking the most recent example of Americans fighting an "enemy" on their home turf, I don't think we are exactly shy about burning our cities to the ground and slaughtering Americans in order to achieve an objective.
It would be a major reality check for Americans though. War is always something (at least as long as any of us can remember) that happens "over there". Our degree of general suffering has been measured from rationing in WW2 to being pissed off that Monday Night Football was interrupted for a news cast in more recent conflicts. You are absolutely correct that it would be a rude awakening for a lot of Americans, but a challenge I think the nation would rise to address.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deezus
Forget Red Dawn--that scenario would've made an excellent 80s movie... The idea of the Hells Angels teaming up with the Crips and Bloods and rural hunters to take on the Soviet invaders would've been a classic...
Seriously, it would have been a good movie. The hunters establishing bases in the wilderness and stocking supplies that the motorcycle gangs pilfer. Then they make a run into the cities to deliver the supplies to a resistance composed of gang-bangers, cops and civilians.
I think though that the opening of the movie should be Yuri and Yevgeniy assigned to check on a farm house. As they approach the front porch they notice an old woman in a rocking chair. As they get closer and put their feet on the front steps, grandmom swings the double barrel around and blasts both of them. She then gets up, grabs her cane and walks off the porch where she spits her plug of tobacco on the dead Soviets.
...cue audience applause and random chants of USA USA USA...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn
Very interesting and informative post, Goat. Thanks.
One thing I observed after 9/11: The gang-bangers I knew (and these were hard-core guys) were among the first to go to Walmart and buy American flags to fly. There was a definite patriotic attitude among them which, quite frankly, surprised me.
There were also a large number of homes that I knew for a fact were lived in by illegal aliens flying American flags. Between the illegals and the gang-bangers the Walmart in that neighborhood was out of flags the day after the attacks. These people were p***** that someone dared attack the U.S.
It is ironic that the people most consider to be the fringes of our society are also the ones who tend to cling to the ideals and symbolism of the "American story".
I had the opportunity in college to read and study some Russian invasion plans for the US, the basic kind of contingency planning that all nations do. The Soviets were deathly afraid of four things when it came to putting troops in America:
1. The large number of firearms in the country. The Russians estimated that the US possessed enough privately held weapons and ammunition to wage an almost indefinite guerilla war.
2. Urban gangs. The Soviets felt that these groups would band together in the face of an external threat and use their knowledge of the cities, contacts and weaponry to become the nucleus of resistance forces.
3. Motorcycle gangs. The Soviets were very scared of these guys. Heavily armed, highly mobile and they knew the terrain. They expected that motorcycle gangs would be a near constant threat to their supply columns.
4. Hunters. American hunters represent the largest "reserve army" on Earth. They are heavily armed, expert marksmen and are intimately familiar with terrain that is perfect for staging ambushes and gueilla camps.
I would guess that the Soviets were drawing upon their own immense partisan operations against the Nazis when projecting American reactions.
Stalin had gone so far as to make a defacto declaration of Partisan War in his August 1941 directives to those who were behind German lines. Even before formal attempts to organize them, they had materialized spontaneously. The first Hero of the Soviet medals of the war were awarded to Red Army soldiers who after being cut off in the Zhabinka district in late June of '41, had organized themselves into a partisan group under the command of local party officials. By December of '41 there were already 90,000 partisans organized into 2000 units, in operation behind German lines. By the end of 1943 the number was half a million.
They did the sorts of things that you mention above. Attacks on German communication and supply lines, destruction of housing and materials that would have been useful to the Germans, ambushing small detachments of German soldiers, assassination of German officers and so forth. As with what the Soviets were imagining from America, their own partisans had been a mongrel sort of force, Poles, Finns, Latvians, Ukrainians, Belarussians.... 45 nationalities were represented, the fighters coming from a wide array of sources...escaped prisoners, deserters from Germany's allied invaders, Red Army soldiers who refused to surrender etc.
It took the Red Army to defeat the Nazis, but the partisans had been a huge pain in the Nazi rear, especially since they were none too gentle in their treatment of any Germans they captured. The Soviet partisans had been extremely rugged people, willing to endure severe hardships and cruel retaliations in exchange for a chance to take a bite out the Nazi war machine. Their major impact had been in forcing the Nazis to withdraw more and more units from the front lines to use as occupation troops.
If the American partisans turned out to be as savage and annoying as the Soviets had been, then there was indeed legitimate cause to fear them.
Last edited by Grandstander; 02-29-2012 at 05:47 PM..
I lived in L.A. during the King Riots. I had NO idea how heavily armed my neighbors were until then. I never imagined storekeepers would take to the roofs with weapons to defend their stores. And that's in crunchy granola California.
Heaven help the invader who messes with the Heartland.
True, and even the bad sort, if its a foreign invader, would be out there with the rest. It would come at a great cost as the sort of weaponry which is not nuked based but just and destructive would be put into play as an all our guerially war erupted. I don't know if full control would ever fully be made, but it would be a fight for every inch won only by badder weapons.
The most horrible part of guerilla wars is the mindset that comes when the invader begins to assume that everyone, no matter who they are, are automatically the enemy and acts accordingly and they bog down in a mire of misery where nobody is winning.
One of the most notable lines ever said in Star Trek was on the episode of TNG about terrorism where Picard tells the security person that in their history no army had ever prevailed in the end against guerillas. He cites Ireland. That episode was banned from broadcast in Britan since they wouldn't edit out the line.
I had the opportunity in college to read and study some Russian invasion plans for the US, the basic kind of contingency planning that all nations do. The Soviets were deathly afraid of four things when it came to putting troops in America:
1. The large number of firearms in the country. The Russians estimated that the US possessed enough privately held weapons and ammunition to wage an almost indefinite guerilla war.
2. Urban gangs. The Soviets felt that these groups would band together in the face of an external threat and use their knowledge of the cities, contacts and weaponry to become the nucleus of resistance forces.
3. Motorcycle gangs. The Soviets were very scared of these guys. Heavily armed, highly mobile and they knew the terrain. They expected that motorcycle gangs would be a near constant threat to their supply columns.
4. Hunters. American hunters represent the largest "reserve army" on Earth. They are heavily armed, expert marksmen and are intimately familiar with terrain that is perfect for staging ambushes and gueilla camps.
So, the Soviets pretty much envisioned a scenario where the inner cities were full of united gangs making life hell for any occupying forces. There would be motorcycle gangs criss-crossing the nations highways plundering supply columns at will. Hunters would organize into small bands and make the forests and mountains virtually off limits to any Soviet forces not in full strength. Then they had the image that every grandmom on her front porch would be holding a double barrel ready to put some 00 buck into whatever commie set foot on her land. Yes, the Soviets thought we were pretty bad ass.
I agree, securing the borders and not giving the invaders a base to launch from is important. That brings it back to your question about the city. The assumption would be that the fallen city was being used as a base for the invaders. In that case, seeing how it is total war, it's lights out. We'd mourn and honor the dead, but I don't think we would blink an eye over doing what had to be done to win.
In the TV series Jericho, almost immediately after the nukes and loss of control of the countryside, gangs took over the roads, willing to kill and rob anyone. I think the their evaluation was rather dead on there. When the (invading) army came, they spent months clearing roads before they dealt with any civilians.
I think some mistake the willingness of our people to preserve ourselves in the face of bush wars fought for unsupported reason and the reaction. While many didn't/don't like the idea of little war after war and say so, and wouldn't push their kids or themselves to join in, should someone come to us then you have all sorts who would be out there to defend *home*. It's also a very good point about the gangs. I've thought that should law dissapear at least in the city I lived in, it wouldn't be gone long, as the gangs would step out from the shadows. It matters that they are already organized and armed and ready. And I'll bet ordinary citizens who ordinarily would wish them to dissapear would follow them because OF that organization.
I think, given an invasion, aside from collaborators (who would be dealt with later) there would be no hesitation of the part of the rest. Not only would it be for home but for personal survival and when that impulse kicks in a lot of other considerations get shut out.
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