Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I've spent a lot of time in Europe. Houses there are built with roofs that last 50-75 years. Floors are usually solid wood, marble, or stone. All interior doors are made with solid wood. Walls are more solid feeling (knock on a wall here in the US and it sounds hollow). However, things like plumbing and insulation are very similar. American homes might even have better insulation.
Some people think that because many European homes are hundreds of years old, they are better built. I suppose it's true. But even the newer homes in Europe are build better. I rented a house in France that was built in the 1950s and it had all of the features I mentioned above.
Even the $500,000 home that my friend's parents bought doesn't feel as sturdy as the crappy studio I rented in Paris years back.
Why are construction methods so different between the US and other parts of the world?
First of all you need to qualify when these so called "well made" European homes were built. 1700's? 1800's? 1600's?
Sadly as recent events in Italy (earthquake) highlight there are plenty of badly constructed homes in Europe. As with several previous similar events in that part of Europe it takes such tragedy to reveal corners were cut during construction, false certifications, and so forth.
As for the "when" or "why" American homes are built with "poor quality" likely turning point came post WWII era when the nation needed to solve a housing shortage in many parts of the country. Since that time the focus has been in many cases to build structures quickly and cheaply as possible for a certain demographic.
Dry wall replaced lathe and plaster walls/ceilings. Nail guns have largely replaced hammering in the things by hand, fittings and fixtures have declined in quality as much now is imported (Asia or elsewhere) all to bring in a product at a certain price point. Even then the cost of new construction can be out of reach for many homebuyers.
Just to be clear there was shoddy workmanship back in the day as well, so things have always gone both ways.
That's very interesting. Roofing tiles made from clay or concrete aren't that expensive in Germany. The prices for such roofing tiles range mostly from 6 to 15 Euro per m² (that's about 55 - 140 Euro per 100 sq ft). I think of renewing the roof of my house. The roof area is about 210m² (2,260 sq ft). Inclusive renewed wooden slats and all labor costs it would cost me around 8,000 - 10,000 Euro. Without renewing the wooden slats it would be about 6,000 - 8,000 Euro.
In Germany pretty much every house has wallpapers, but of course not the ones with flowers or other patterns (these were common in the 70s or 80s). It's just ingrain wallpaper (Raufaser). This kind of wallpaper has to be painted. The walls are normally made out of limestones or concrete. The walls are plastered and no one would paint a plastered wall. I don't know why, maybe it's not possible to paint on plaster. So you need these ingrain wallpaper. And this wallpaper is then painted. Even if people have some walls with plasterboard (after a rebuild for example) no one would just paint the plasterboard. People put these ingrain wallpapers on the plasterboard and then it gets painted. Removing the wallpaper from a plastered wall isn't a problem, but it's difficult to remove them from plasterboard.
I do not know where in Germany you are but no one I know has had Raufaser since the 70s. Plastered walls were painted and then often rolled with rubber rollers with patters. You could get several colors onto one roll using special dipping pans. My Grandmother loved pastels with gold.
About the roof tile thing, we are just talking past each other. I just say I have never heard that someone in Germany was killed by tossing roof tiles, but I think that this can happen, but it's surely extremely rare. Of course tossing roof tiles are extremely dangerous.
Probably about as likely as someone in the US being killed by a tornado.
Quote:
In Germany roof tiles made out of concrete or clay aren't that much more expensive than asphalt shingles. The cheaperst roof tiles seems to be cheaper than the cheapest asphalt shingles. So it makes not that much sense to use asphalt shingles in Germany. I guess there is a huge price difference in the U.S. between asphalt shingles and roof tiles, so it doesn't make sense to use roof tiles.
My guess would be that since there are more wind storms in the US, that plays a pretty large part in whether or not there's much demand for tiles as roofing. Not only that, it's just not a very popular style in the US (you will see some tile roofs, and you will also see some tin roofs, and some wooden shingle roofs, but regular 30 year shingles are more POPULAR in the US).
You also will not see as many stucco homes in the US as you see in many parts of Europe. Once again, it's a combination of climate and style preferences that play into this rather than cost.
There's a lot of difference in housing types in the US. For instance, my husband and I just got back from visiting Ohio. There, the large, white rambling farmhouse is very common (siding is used). Those types of homes aren't as common in Texas, where we tend to have more brick and stone homes.
Quote:
My personal experience in the U.S. is limited to Fitchburg in Massachusetts. It's a quite poor place and it's pretty rundown. I think it's pretty normal that this has shaped my view of the U.S. Meanwhile I know that it's completely different in other parts of the U.S. When I see listings for houses or apartments in Florida or Texas, that is so much better than what you mostly find in the North Eastern part of the U.S. It's not a reproach, but sometims I have the impression that quite a few Americans don't know how other parts of the U.S. looks like. Surely a result of the sheer size of the U.S.
I get what you're saying. The US IS huge. I haven't been to Massachusetts (yet - planning a trip up the NE coast this fall though). However, I just came back from a road trip from Ohio down through Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma and then ending back home in Texas. So no, I'm not familiar with the housing styles in Fitchburg, MA, but I am very familiar with housing styles throughout the Mid Atlantic region, the midwest, the southeast, the southwest, and the Pacific coast. I have not spent much time in the Pacific northwest or the northeast however. In fact, though I've spent a lot of time in various states (I think I've visited 40 of the 50 states), I haven't yet been further north than Rhode Island and Pennsylvania. (Unless you count Utah and Minnesota but they are on the other side of the country - LOL.)
Quote:
It's very interesting to see the differences in the age of the housing stock in different parts of the U.S. For example 61% of the housing units in Boston were built before 1950. In Cleveland it's even higher with 66%. Or 67% in Rochester. In Dallas just 12% were built before 1950, in Austin just 6%. It seems to be like a completely different world.
Yes, there's a very wide range of housing types throughout the US. PLEASE don't judge US housing on what you've seen in Fitchburg, MA!
Quote:
I had a short look into realtor.com. At least the realtors there seem to put a lot more effort into the listings. They are able to make sharp images, at zillow.com I have often the impression that most realtors have never taken a photo before. Can it be that zillow.com attracts more listings for ramshackle hats? And realtor.com more listings for nicer homes?
Realtor.com is a professional site used by real estate professionals exclusively to market their listings - of any price and style. Zillow is a less than professional site that anyone can use to market their home. Many of the homes on Zillow are not listed by professional realtors at all so what you may be seeing are snapshots taken by home owners with their cell phones for all I know - LOL.
Most homes in the US are sold by professional realtors, however, and therefore are nearly always listed on realtor.com.
Quote:
But the kitchens still look the same
Haha, that's funny - I think that most German kitchens look very similar to each other.
(By the way, I think these are pretty darn ugly kitchens. They would be gutted and remodeled by most American home owners. These are all kitchens from homes that would be around $200,000 US dollars - above the median price of homes in the US.)
Couple of things:
1) The 30 year and 15 year mortgage is almost an American exclusive. Mortgages do not exist in many countries, so homes are bought with cash - cash that took years and years and years to save up. As a result, homes are passed down and kept in the family. Or people rent forever.
2) Because they are sold more often, many American home are poorly maintained. If a home is properly maintained it should last virtually forever. Who needs a 50 years roof when a 15 year roof costs 1/5 as much and can be easily replaced?
When our homes need maintenance many of us simply move.
Mortgages are common enough all over Europe and have been so for some time. Though they usually are variable rates instead of the more commonly found fixed (USA), and usually run for 15 years. At the end of that period you either own your home or take out another loan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortga...inental_Europe
As for the ubiquitous wallpaper found in many European homes (especially in Germany and the UK) - wallpaper has quite fallen out of style in the US. Currently, the trend is painted walls. Of course, that could change, but my point is that in the US, wallpaper is not considered a sign of quality - it's usually the first thing to be ripped out and smoothed over when a new owner comes along. It's a very dated look here and that preference has nothing to do with the price of wallpaper. Americans aren't eschewing wallpaper because of the cost, but because it's just not desirable. In the 1980s and 1990s, it was quite popular.
Many homes don't even use gas (if they do, their electric bills are generally lower).
So that comes to about $140 a month - heck, round it up to $200 a month on average if you like, for Americans.
I would say that the differences are negligible when it comes to price. Besides that, the US is several times larger than Germany and has a wider range of prices for utilities, making a true comparison even more difficult.
I don't understand why you would subtract the costs of a central heating system in a German home though. Those yearly costs seem high - significantly higher than the average yearly cost of a central heating system in a typical US home. Maybe those figures aren't accurate, I don't know (being unfamiliar with a boiler type of heating system).
I have made a mistake, the figures for the U.S. from the consumer expenditures survey (CES) are averages, not medians.
The $110 for electricity is the average, it's obviously higher for those households that use electricity for everything.
The figures from the CES:
- Electricity: $124
- Natural gas: $37
- Fuel oil: $13
- Water: $44
The amount for water also includes other public services. Using your $30 for water, and $200 per month seems a good estimate.
It cost slightly more as in Germany, but American housing units are larger. The size of an average household in the U.S. is 2.5 compared to 2.0 in Germany. You have AC. It's pretty clear that you can consume a lot more energy for the same amount of money.
Quote:
I don't understand why you would subtract the costs of a central heating system in a German home though. Those yearly costs seem high - significantly higher than the average yearly cost of a central heating system in a typical US home. Maybe those figures aren't accurate, I don't know (being unfamiliar with a boiler type of heating system).
I subtracted it, because the typical owner of a single family house has these expenses. For my house I have to pay the chimney sweeper and the maintenance guy, I also have to renew the installation after about 20 years. My landlord with district heating doesn't have this kind of expenses. He pays for them with his monthly bill. These expenses are basically included in his monthly bill. He pays very high fixed costs. For example the annual 600 Euro fixed costs for the space heating is used by the public utility company to maintain the thermal power plant. These fixed costs are similar to the costs that a typical home owner has to pay for the chimney sweeper, the maintenance guy and for saving for a new heating boiler.
I have installed a new gas heating system 4 years ago. I have paid almost 7,000 Euro but that also included the removal of the old oil tanks (it was oil fired before) removal of the immurement, removal of some pipes. Most likely that the 8,000 - 10,000 Euro are set far too high. The prices for the actual "Gasbrennwertgerät" with 24 kW seems to start at about 1,400 Euro:
As for the ubiquitous wallpaper found in many European homes (especially in Germany and the UK) - wallpaper has quite fallen out of style in the US. Currently, the trend is painted walls. Of course, that could change, but my point is that in the US, wallpaper is not considered a sign of quality - it's usually the first thing to be ripped out and smoothed over when a new owner comes along. It's a very dated look here and that preference has nothing to do with the price of wallpaper. Americans aren't eschewing wallpaper because of the cost, but because it's just not desirable. In the 1980s and 1990s, it was quite popular.
I don't understand how it's possible to paint the wall without a wallpaper . In Germany the wall is normally plastered (verputzt). It sounds weird to paint the plaster. And even if a wall is a drywall, it sounds strange to just paint the drywall. Of course people in Germany first put the wallpaper on the drywall and then the wallpaper is painted. Or are you speaking about these patterned wallpapers (with flowers and such things)? Of course those are also fallen out of style. Some people use a patterned wallpaper at one wall and the other walls are painted in a matching color.
No one in Germany would consider a wallpaper a sign of quality, it's just a necessity before you can paint the wall.
I don't understand how it's possible to paint the wall without a wallpaper . In Germany the wall is normally plastered (verputzt). It sounds weird to paint the plaster. And even if a wall is a drywall, it sounds strange to just paint the drywall. Of course people in Germany first put the wallpaper on the drywall and then the wallpaper is painted. Or are you speaking about these patterned wallpapers (with flowers and such things)? Of course those are also fallen out of style. Some people use a patterned wallpaper at one wall and the other walls are painted in a matching color.
No one in Germany would consider a wallpaper a sign of quality, it's just a necessity before you can paint the wall.
Historically in the US plaster and now wallboard/sheetrock was designed to be painted. The wallpaper with raised designs obviously would not be.
I don't understand how it's possible to paint the wall without a wallpaper . In Germany the wall is normally plastered (verputzt). It sounds weird to paint the plaster. And even if a wall is a drywall, it sounds strange to just paint the drywall. Of course people in Germany first put the wallpaper on the drywall and then the wallpaper is painted. Or are you speaking about these patterned wallpapers (with flowers and such things)? Of course those are also fallen out of style. Some people use a patterned wallpaper at one wall and the other walls are painted in a matching color.
No one in Germany would consider a wallpaper a sign of quality, it's just a necessity before you can paint the wall.
All forms of wallpaper are basically a bit passe in the US. Occasionally someone will use the sort of heavy wallpaper you are talking about (the type that's designed to be painted - I am familiar with that sort of wallpaper in the US and in Germany and it's basically the same stuff), and paint over it but it's usually done in some sort of "period" or historic home, or for some sort of special effect. But we use lots of types of special effects for texture on our walls - plaster, paper, tile, paneling, trimwork, stone, brick, etc.
Our walls are not usually plaster, though they may be textured with plaster - in which case we just paint over the plaster. Otherwise we prep and then paint over the drywall.
No need to put wallpaper on US walls in order to paint them. And paint stays in place once it's on there - no issues whatsoever. Wallpaper is not a necessity with our style of walls.
My guess would be that since there are more wind storms in the US, that plays a pretty large part in whether or not there's much demand for tiles as roofing. Not only that, it's just not a very popular style in the US (you will see some tile roofs, and you will also see some tin roofs, and some wooden shingle roofs, but regular 30 year shingles are more POPULAR in the US).
Just a comment that roof tiles are extremely common in southern California. In some towns (mine, for example), virtually all homes have tile roofs. If you have a wooden shingle roof, your homeowner's insurance will go up astronomically because of the fire hazard. And, tile roofs (as opposed to asphalt shingles) fit the Southwest design style.
But this just goes to show again how very different things are in different areas of the US.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
