I think he got off lightly! (Post: crimes, gated, costs)

[TVC15]

Originally Posted by Bily Lovec

wow,
you must really be hating obama and pelosi for what they've done to the WHOLE COUNTRY and our KID'S FUTURES ...

but for some reason, I suspect thats not true

Actually Obama and Pelosi have nothing to do with my comments or post.

I have no tolerance for political crooks.

I must ask how you were able to eliminate Bush from your list of who has ruined our country and kids futures

[crone]

Originally Posted by TheEconomist

I personally didn't like the guy, but he didn't commit an act of violence against anyone and he was a strong advocate of keeping our taxes low and fighting the regulation that is currently killing the economy of many a blue state. To give him a hefty sentence like you would give a killer or rapist would just be a political burning at the stake to satisfy the torch-wielding villagers storming Dr. Frankenstein's castle.

Also, the money laundering statutes are on the books to combat organize crime like drug and human trafficking operations. To apply those laws to political campaigns is a gross stretch and abuse of process.

The no contributions from business has been on the books as long as I can remember. That is where the money laundering came from. There is no doubt he got corporate money and ran it through another organization, then to his candidates. All he had to do was set it up another way. He just got the big head and thought the rules did not apply to him.

[TheEconomist]

Originally Posted by crone

The no contributions from business has been on the books as long as I can remember. That is where the money laundering came from. There is no doubt he got corporate money and ran it through another organization, then to his candidates. All he had to do was set it up another way. He just got the big head and thought the rules did not apply to him.

All the campaign finance stuff was LEGAL. It is not illegal to transfer money. If we simply allowed free speech in elections then none of these incredibly complicated campaign finance rules would be on the books. And, yes, contributing money is a form of expression that you may not like, but it is expression at the end of the day. It is non-violent and peaceful and is a protected liberty in the constitution.

Subsequently, it was a complete stretch to make the money laundering statute apply to campaign finance. There was actually a law that was broken that DeLay was originally charged with. HOWEVER, when the defense attorney checked the history of the law he found out that the law hadn't been on the books at the time of the alleged infraction. So, they had to come up with new charges. That is where the set of trumped up charges came into play. The prosecution's blunder was horribly embarassing and they had to get a conviction from that point on.

I'm not saying DeLay was a saint, but he is actually correct when he calls it the criminalization of politics. Politics is a contact sport and he was very good at it. He's not a criminal.

Also, it seems like people are more upset about re-districting than the criminal charges. The re-districting was a dirty trick, but 100% legal.

[TVC15]

Originally Posted by TheEconomist

All the campaign finance stuff was LEGAL. It is not illegal to transfer money. If we simply allowed free speech in elections then none of these incredibly complicated campaign finance rules would be on the books. And, yes, contributing money is a form of expression that you may not like, but it is expression at the end of the day. It is non-violent and peaceful and is a protected liberty in the constitution.

Subsequently, it was a complete stretch to make the money laundering statute apply to campaign finance. There was actually a law that was broken that DeLay was originally charged with. HOWEVER, when the defense attorney checked the history of the law he found out that the law hadn't been on the books at the time of the alleged infraction. So, they had to come up with new charges. That is where the set of trumped up charges came into play. The prosecution's blunder was horribly embarassing and they had to get a conviction from that point on.

I'm not saying DeLay was a saint, but he is actually correct when he calls it the criminalization of politics. Politics is a contact sport and he was very good at it. He's not a criminal.

Also, it seems like people are more upset about re-districting than the criminal charges. The re-districting was a dirty trick, but 100% legal.

All you can say is it was a dirty trick It was highly unethical. He fixed the boundaries to assure that Democrats couldn't win in most of the districts in Texas. It is called Gerrymandering which in this case was political corruption at it's finest...where is the good ole Texas justice when it's most deserved.

[TheEconomist]

Originally Posted by TVC15

All you can say is it was a dirty trick It was highly unethical. He fixed the boundaries to assure that Democrats couldn't win in most of the districts in Texas. It is called Gerrymandering which in this case was political corruption at it's finest...where is the good ole Texas justice when it's most deserved.

Right, exactly. It seems like what you are most upset about are the things he did that were 100% legal under the law. You can't throw someone in jail for doing something legal. That would be arbitrary imprisonment. It shocks me at how transparent the DeLay haters are. I'll be honest. Before I became a libertarian, I was a liberal and I couldn't stand DeLay. But even then, you have to allow for the rule of law and you can't throw your political opponents in jail like a third rate dictatorship.

The districts were gerrymanded. I will give you that, but the courts approved it and it was 100% legal. Now, you want him in jail. What you're advocating is dictatorship and not a functioning democracy.

[TVC15]

Originally Posted by TheEconomist

Right, exactly. It seems like what you are most upset about are the things he did that were 100% legal under the law. You can't throw someone in jail for doing something legal. That would be arbitrary imprisonment. It shocks me at how transparent the DeLay haters are. I'll be honest. Before I became a libertarian, I was a liberal and I couldn't stand DeLay. But even then, you have to allow for the rule of law and you can't throw your political opponents in jail like a third rate dictatorship.

The districts were gerrymanded. I will give you that, but the courts approved it and it was 100% legal. Now, you want him in jail. What you're advocating is dictatorship and not a functioning democracy.

I see it like this. You can get away with stealing if your not caught...so either you steal or you don't have it within you to steal. He knew in his conscious right mind what he was doing. It might have been legal but it was unethical and evil. It is not a functioning democracy when a certain party is put in a paralyzed position that is nearly if not impossible to win...how is that a functioning democracy?

And for what it's worth: I am not a Democrat, Republican, Libertarian and so on and so fourth. I stand by and vote for sound and sensible principals no matter which party or affiliate represents. Sometimes it just comes down to the lesser of two evils...unfortunately you pick your poison as they say.

[Oildog]

Originally Posted by TVC15

All you can say is it was a dirty trick It was highly unethical. He fixed the boundaries to assure that Democrats couldn't win in most of the districts in Texas. It is called Gerrymandering which in this case was political corruption at it's finest...where is the good ole Texas justice when it's most deserved.

This should be a textbook example of Gerrymandering...

Texas

[crone]

When I was a precinct captain for Barry Goldwater, I verified the address of every registered voter in my precinct. Election day came and 8 vacant lots voted 18 people. When I told my the Bexar County organizer the response was, every judge in Texas is a Democrat. There is no way the prevail on this one. My DH voted absentee as he was going out of town. When walking back to the office, he and his friend discovered the machines were rigged. It is no different now, except a different bunch is in control. Same people, they just have different names and faces and the party has a different name.
Delay should be jailed for arrogance and stupidity. You can get all the corporate donations you need. He changed Texas politics for the foreseeable future. There is no way anybody but a Republican can win a state or national office. Our congressional delegation will be full of people like Rick Perry and Rep. Sessions.

[TheEconomist]

It seems like everyone more or less agrees that the money laundering charges were bogus, but they are happy he got convicted for something, anything so that he is made to pay for the legal gerrymandering he did. This doesn't pass the smell test. In a free society, you can't just jail your political opponents for lawful actions they have taken to lawfully gain more power in the political system. I hope the decision is reversed on appeal.

[crone]

I do not agree that the money laundering was bogus. Tom Delay was one of the most unethical members of Congress Texas has had in a long time. He makes them all look bad.
IMHO, drawing district to enable your side to win may be legal, but it is not in the best interest of the electorate, the state or the nation. We got new districts twice from the 2000 census. This win at any cost demeans us all. Lynch mob mentality runs the state of Texas
My fear is that Darwin was correct.