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Like him or not, Kopp is getting things done in Huntington. The new Rec Center, two new dorms, an engineering lab and a softball field all without a dime of state or federal money. That's $100 million in new facilities without a single dime of taxpayer money. If I remember correctly CT, you were claiming the Rec Center would have no effect on enrollment but it was up 11% for freshmen last year and applications are up sharply this year as well. Seems like that's a pretty significant effect to me and it hasn't even been open a full year. Capstone Companies (http://www.capstonecompanies.com/newsdetail.php?id_news=73&PHPSESSID=922aac9870e443 af3dfbf00f8f10dd90 - broken link)
Kopp is also adding new programs and I applaud him for this. Yes it takes money to do so, but what is the goal of a university? To provide educational opportunities for current and prospective students. If MU wants to grow, they have to continue to add more programs that people want. This makes MU more attractive not only for those graduate programs but for undergrad as well. Most students are more likely to go to the school that has the degree they want. Then they don't have to worry about transferring credits or adjusting to the campus. I agree with GHO about needing a Law School, and it's appropriate since the school is named for a Supreme Court Justice. I also stand by what I said about them needing a Dentistry School as well. And MU isn't the only school not giving raises to employees. The Daily Athenaeum - Faculty Senate reacts to lack of raises
I don't want to reiterate old arguments, but you know I don't agree with the grow at any costs policies implimented by the current Marshall administration. It is likely that the rec. center had some effect, but the major thrust in their current "growth" is economy driven It could just as easily reverse itself in a year or two when things get better. Admittedly, I don't have a reliable crystal ball, so we'll just have to wait and see.
I do hope they can keep it up, but I hope they do it the right way... not with deeply discounted tuition (as is currently the case), and redundant educational programs (the State already has two pharmacy schools and is in danger of running a deficit). There are trade offs for these actions, and they are coming at the expense of faculty and staff salaries, and of existing programs. Ask some of the faculty members what they think of these "developments". I have done so, and the ones with whom I spoke don't approve.
You are correct that WVU isn't giving significant raises, but they aren't running around starting up new programs either. They are a better endowed school and charge significantly more tuition, so their faculty already make more money than their counterparts at Marshall. The income supports the higher salaries. Their focus is on research now, and that involves bringing money in... not putting it out. And, the financial condition of the two institutions is very different. West Virginia does not deeply discount its tuition. Marshall has more deals going than Walmart. You can get in-state tuition if your grandmother went to Marshall and you live in Bengla Desh.
I know you believe Kopp is getting things done, and I can't argue with that. My concern is how he is doing it, and my belief is he will bail out before the negative impact from his decisions takes root.
You keep saying it's merely economy driven yet in-state applications are up 38% at MU and are flat or slightly up at WVU. Out of state applications are also up at MU while they are down sharply at WVU, per reports from November. If it's only the economy, how do you explain both going up for MU?
Also, you keep saying MU tuition is deeply discounted but the numbers show otherwise. Here is MU compared with WVU and other schools that are close-by.
MU tuition is: In-state: $5,236; Out-of-state: $12,482
WVU tuition is: In-state: $5,304; Out-of-state: $16,402
Pitt is: In-state: $14,154; Out-of-state: $23,852
Rutgers is: In-state: $11,414; Out-of-state: $22,046
University of Kentucky is: In-state: $8,123; Out-of-state: $16,678
Ohio University is: In-state: $8,907; Out-of-state: $17,871
East Carolina University is: In-state: $4,220; Out-of-State: $15,054
So compare MU to its fellow C-USA school and schools that are close-by and then do the same for WVU. People just across the river 15 minutes away in Ohio could go 2 hours away to OU for ~$3,500 less if they didn't offer a metro rate, which is still more than In-state tuition. So it's either lose those students or give them incentive to come here.
Also, the "state" only has one pharmacy school as UC is private and thus privately funded.
Tim, ... first of all check the disparity in out-of-state tuition from the figures you posted. Marshall is several thousand cheaper than any of the other schools. But, I'm sure you know that isn't the whole story. They also have further discount plans for out-of-state students. Relatives of graduates are eligible for deeper discounts (essentially the in-state rate no matter where they live). Residents of the five neighboring states are eligible (even those who live as far away as Philadelphia, for example for the "border state" tuition discount which brings the tuition down by $3,500 making their tuition $8,982, and those of much of Ohio and Kentucky receive even steeper discounts under the "metro rate" discount program making their tuition just $8,030.
My contention is by far the biggest "growth" contributor for Marshall is cheap tuition during these distressed economic times. By using this Walmart style tactic, they not only depress overall quality, they also put unnecessary stressors on the higher education system in general. Their out-of-state tuition (for the five neighboring states, which is essentially their out-of-state student body) is $2,000 cheaper than nearby West Virginia State ($2,800 cheaper for those from much of Ohio and Kentucky).
I'm not trying to start an argument, but if you think there aren't problems related to some of these policies I just don't know what to say. Basically West Virginia's already stressed taxpayers are providing steep tuition discounts to people who pay no taxes within the state. That should be obvious. But even more importantly, current resident students are having their education diminished by the policy since the scarce resources must be spread ever thinner with every new tuition discount scheme.
I've mentioned the effects on resident students of these policies, how about the faculty.
The biggest portion of a school's operating expenses comes from tuition. State subsidy amounts to only between 15% and 19% of operating funds. According to the Chronicle of Higher Education, these tuition rates support the following average salaries (since you mentioned WVU, I'll put theirs up for comparison)
Marshall University
Professor $72,800
Associate Prof. $65,800
Assistant Prof. $48,400
West Virginia University
Professor $102,400
Associate Prof. $72,800
Assistant Prof. $60,200
How do you think the Marshall faculty feels about some of these policies?
I guess if you make things cheap enough, somebody will buy, but growth in this manner is, in my opinion, highly questionable. It is true that some of the growth is undoubtedly due to students simply needing to go to school closer to home due to the economy. But, it would be naive to assume that such cheap tuition doesn't have a major impact. I'll certainly not make that assumption.
Last edited by CTMountaineer; 12-15-2009 at 10:11 PM..
Sorry CT but your figures and accusations for tuition are flat out wrong. Being an alumnus, one would think you would know these things. Glenville State nor West Virginia State have out-of-state tuition higher than Marshall. I'll list them here with links rather than just making baseless claims:
And Marshall does not offer Border State tuition. They offer a $3,500 scholarship to students in neighboring states who meet certain qualifications. Scholarships are funded through donations and endowments. Their tuition remains the same. WVU offers a $3,000 scholarship to ALL out of state students with very similar academic qualifications. They offer even higher amounts for better test scores and GPAs, up to $12,000/year based on those 2 factors alone. Does that mean they are cheating tax payers or are they just trying to give out-of-state students more incentive to come to school in WV and possibly stay? And the legacy scholarship is the same thing. It is a scholarship and the student must again meet certain criteria. It is not a special tuition for any relative that has gone to MU. The parent or grandparent (only relatives that apply to this) must be an active (dues paying) member of the Marshall University Alumni Association.
And the MU Metro rate does not include "much of Ohio and Kentucky." It includes 6 neighboring counties in Ohio and 9 in Kentucky. Since Ohio has 88 counties and Kentucky has 120, I don't think those numbers account for "much" of those states. By offering the metro rate, which is still more than in-state tuition, they are giving the students who are an hour or so away from Huntington more incentive to come to MU rather than go to OU, OSU or UK. They have to compete with the in-state tuition of those institutions, all 3 of which are in the $8,000 range. The closest school to WVU being Pitt, which has a much higher in-state tuition, allows WVU to keep that number higher for out-of-state residents. And why do you think so many people from Pennsylvania and New Jersey go to WVU? It's cheaper for many of them and it's easier to get into. WVU is their "Wal-Mart" to use your term.
Marshall University - College of Science (http://www.marshall.edu/cos/metrotuition.asp - broken link)
And with MU not offering the academic programs that WVU does, I would expect the pay to be lower here. You have to pay graduate professors more and WVU has more graduate programs, which raises the average salary. Not really all that surprising. If MU can expand graduate programs and research, which would provide more money, average salaries would likely increase as well. Note that MU is second in WV in pay. If it weren't, then I would feel that something was wrong with the pay scale.
You continue to twist things as usual. You also didn't address the disparity between WVU and fellow Big East Members, including the one that is an hour and a half away with thousands of dollars difference in tuition. Wonder why? You continue to point out that MU and WVU aren't at the same level of offerings and then belittle MU when they don't match up to WVU. But yet when WVU is far behind peer institutions, you have little to say about that.
Because every single graduate of the school would stay in West Virginia, I'm sure of it!
Thank goodness you aren't in control of higher ed in this state. You'd close all other schools and consolidate everything at WVU. It's the LACK of educational opportunities that holds this state back, not the over abundance of them as you claim. I think you are the only person I've ever heard claim that WV has too many educational opportunities. More educational opportunities leads to a more educated work force which makes a state more attractive to businesses and leads to growth. Our schools are also how we bring new people to the state to help increase population if we are to grow.
STUPID move. Not for Marshall, they'll make a ton of money, but for the idiot pharmacists that are opening yet another school. You used to need a 3.6+ GPA to get into pharmacy school. Now these third-tier diploma mills have been accepting candidates with GPAs less than 3.0 in some schools. It's yet another step towards diluting the talent pool in pharmacy. Some of these kids I see coming out of these new upstart schools, frankly, frighten me. Fresh out of school, they are incompetent. Charleston, Shenandoah, Appalachia, Wilkes-Barre - they have lowered the bar so much that I honestly think it is going to harm the profession long term. We actually don't hire W-B students because we've yet to run into one worth a damn...and that's likely the type of students Marshall will get for the first decade at least as it will take a good 6 years to get accredited fully. Yay.
Not to mention that's also discounting the practical economics of it. The market for the profession is already starting to become saturated. Graduates on the Eastern Seaboard are already having trouble finding work. Grads from the Philly schools and Rutgers are finding it VERY difficult to find work. More than 30 schools have opened within the last 10 years from the original 79. Just people trying to cash in on the "shortage" from 2000-2005 that's long since ended. Unbelievable. Thanks Marshall. You're idiotic me-too arms race with WVU is going to be yet another disservice to the state.
I'm seriously going to consider a move to Canada. The pay is about the same...and they have a ton of intangibles...like they still give people pensions. Plus, they still only give out B.S. in pharmacy there...I'd be the only dude around with a PharmD. They have ten schools for the entire country. Ontario and Quebec have two. And each school takes only the most upper-tier candidates. The job market in Ontario will always be ripe. In the US, any greedy idiot can open up a school. The ACPE has to follow a judgment that they can't restrict the amount of schools that want to become accredited. So, yup, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can open one up. Make millions in the process. Unfortunately, the greed in academia is going to make pharmacy a less and less appealing profession in the US. Granted, I went to one of the original 79 schools and have experience, so I'll have the resume and pedigree to always have a job...but still...it's disheartening...
Just Charleston opening a diploma mill was ridiculous. Now Marshall? Really? Three schools in WV? Does anyone really think that much demand exists? Especially with Walgreens and other retailers going to the central-fill model that stands to cut manpower hours by up to 33%? Unbelievable.
Last edited by WVUPharm2007; 12-16-2009 at 02:53 AM..
For us non-PharmD people, what is "central-fill?" Is that an automated dispensing system or something of the like?
Basically, it's a new business model that Walgreens is starting to push (they call it POWER) where they fill maintenance medications at a central pharmacy. What this does, it turn it into an assembly line type of thing where a few pharmacists sit in cubicles for hours at a time dispensing and verifying medications to people they don't know. They are delivered daily to individual stores. It's cutting man hours significantly. Just google "Walgreens Power"...you'll probably find something more specific.
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It's Official: MU to Add Pharmacy Program
