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But they weren't even old enough to see their moving here as a 'reward' in the first place. It's easy for you and all of us to say that they're being rewarded illegally, but that's the political side of this discussion. We're talking about lives here. Their parents made the decision to come; their families decided to come. In the case we're talking about here, the children did not. What were they to decide?
The children made no decision to come here, or to live in this country in violation of our laws. Likewise, I had no choice in relocating from PA to DC as a child. Naturally, children follow their parents. But, that isn't the issue. At issue is the wanton disregard for our laws and our taxpayers. And yes, if we allow them to stay and legalize their status, we will in fact be "rewarding" them for their parents' unlawful behavior. Is it fair to their children? Perhaps not. But, life is often unfair.
Like you, I once felt compassion for Dreamies. However, after visiting their website and reading some of the vulgar and racist comments, I quickly changed my opinion. Upon realizing they were being scrutinized, they tried to sanitize their forum, but the cat is already out the bag. I have never seen such an ingrate, arrogant and entitlement-minded group in my life. Granted, the members of that forum do not necessarily represent all illegal aliens brought here as children. Nevertheless, I now feel as much disdain toward them as their parents.
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Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas
And I think you're wrong. Punishing the children of illegal immigrants isn't going to deter people from coming across the border. The only thing that will punish them will be erasing the idea that they can come over here and get easy employment, and fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on perspective) that is increasingly harder to do. I think what will solve the problem is an electronic verification system. Sure there will be fraud, but fraud can be traced and eventually prosecuted, and it should be. You have to take the money out of illegal immigration. In the 1980s and 1990s, there was a lot of money out there for illegals, and there were few ways to stop them, primarily because businesses wouldn't get into too much trouble for employing them. ICE could only round up so many, and companies smugly knew that there was a supply and limited consequences for them. The way you end illegal immigration is to make those who finance illegal immigration's economy feel so much pain that they don't dare do business with them.
I don't consider the enforcement of our laws as "punishment." In fact, the refusal by our government to enforce our laws has facilitated illegal immigration. As long as they know there will be no penalty for violating our laws, they will continue to come. That's a fact.
We are in total agreement regarding the profiteers of illegal immigration. Unfortunately, the corporate elite own this country, and as long as they do, "enforcement" will continue to be a slap on the wrist.
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Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas
But sending someone back to Mexico at the age of 27 when they've lived here most of their lives just doesn't seem like something that should be done without careful consideration. If they're a member of a street gang? Sure, no problem. Deport them and harass anyone who gives them harbor and fine the living hell out of anyone who gives them employment of any kind. But someone like the kid in the article who's just trying to get by? Well, I'd still fine heavily anyone who's employing him but I'd also give him a chance to convert his status to a semi-permanent resident with the possibility of becoming a long-term resident and eventually a citizen, provided he's clean. I'm advocating a chance to be heard and judged fairly, not an automatic handout.
Didn't his parents leave their homeland as adults to live here illegally? Again, he is an adult, he is educated, and he will do fine outside this country. If he truly wants to become a U.S. citizen, he should return home and apply through legal channels. Then, I would welcome him.
Because their parents were motivated to come to this country. There is not necessarily any motivation -- other than running from law enforcement or creditors -- for someone living here to leave the country.
There is if we give them motivation by making it clear they'll never become citizens if they attempt to skip the immigration lines. We need to make life harder on illegals not easier.
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Repatriating someone in the example we're discussing doesn't really address the situation you're talking about. I understand and agree that we need to curb illegal immigration in general. I'm talking about unique cases where it might be in our interest, and in the interests of what's fair and just, to keep someone here, rather than just mindlessly following some legal principle.
Win an olympic medal, place in the Intel science fair and that sort of thing okay you can stay even if you're illegal. But nearly no illegals fall into that category. It is not in our best interests to tell people that all they have to do is get an American GED and they can stay and bring over their entire family here no matter how ill qualified and likely to be a burden.
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That's an extreme position, and I don't think it's necessary. I don't believe that giving an inch always means giving a mile. I think the problem for years has been, we have been giving miles, not inches. And by giving miles, I mean giving employers essentially an unlimited supply of illegal labor while giving them limited consequences for their actions. If we make them feel the consequences, then one will naturally take care of the other over time.
What's extreme about wanting to enforce our immigration laws? I have no problem with fining employers as well. I don't think anyone on the forum does.
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Actually, he's not a resident of Mexico; he could be a citizen of Mexico, but he's quite obviously not a resident, unless he's misrepresenting himself in the story, which he doesn't appear to be. He's a resident of the United States, just not one in the eyes of the law.
No he isn't. Residency implies permanence. If you can be deported at any time you are not a resident of the United States. Our laws matter even if illegals arrogantly think they don't.
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I do agree with you that he is not wise to go out in front of the press and start thrusting himself in the middle of a political controversy. On that we can agree. But I also suspect it's just voicing his personal frustration over being trapped between two nations, and two cultures; living in a place that he has come to see as his home, with presumably all of his friends and close social connections, but to be reminded on a daily basis that he doesn't even legally exist as a resident in this country. I could understand that frustration, even if I think he's not wise to voice it publicly.
He doesn't have to be trapped. He can go home. Problem solved. His feeling of being trapped is not my problem or my concern. I'm frankly really sick of people like him who want compassion from Americans while thumbing their noses at our laws. If he has a problem let him place it squarely where belongs: on his parents. They willfully broke our immigration laws. Neither he nor they should be rewarded with citizenship for having done so.
There is if we give them motivation by making it clear they'll never become citizens if they attempt to skip the immigration lines. We need to make life harder on illegals not easier.
Well that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I think it's not always necessary to take that approach in any and all circumstances.
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It is not in our best interests to tell people that all they have to do is get an American GED and they can stay and bring over their entire family here no matter how ill qualified and likely to be a burden.
I'm not advocating that he be allowed to bring over anyone else. I'm saying that he, and perhaps others like him, can be an exception under these unusual circumstances. I think they need to provide evidence that they could support themselves without going on to welfare for at least five years and they need to have a spotless record. But if they meet that sniff test, I don't see why you wouldn't want them working. Hell, they're more productive than the 3 million or so native-born Americans we have locked up at any given point in time, and perhaps hundreds of thousands or even millions of others who are taking unemployment benefits.
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What's extreme about wanting to enforce our immigration laws? I have no problem with fining employers as well. I don't think anyone on the forum does.
I think where I'm going with this is that it's going after the employers first and foremost that is going to be the key to slowing illegal immigration. Granted, a raised profile of this issue is also bound to have an effect as well, and there's evidence that all of these things, combined with a bad economy, have slowed illegal entry to a nearly 40-year low in this past year. It's harder for illegals to find work, and it's harder for illegals to find places to live and go to school -- and I don't necessarily have problems with these policies. I have a problem perhaps with what I sometimes see as an obsession by some with this issue, but that aside, many of the policies are hard to argue against in principle.
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No he isn't. Residency implies permanence. If you can be deported at any time you are not a resident of the United States. Our laws matter even if illegals arrogantly think they don't.
I'm talking in the realistic sense here, not in the strictest sense of the law. I just find this obsession with following the letter of the law interesting with regard to the issue of illegal immigration because I see few other issues where people seem obsessed with technicalities of the law itself.
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He doesn't have to be trapped. He can go home. Problem solved. His feeling of being trapped is not my problem or my concern. I'm frankly really sick of people like him who want compassion from Americans while thumbing their noses at our laws.
Easy for us to say, but I would imagine not as easy to live by. I know you probably wouldn't care. Speaking of smugness. lol.
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If he has a problem let him place it squarely where belongs: on his parents. They willfully broke our immigration laws. Neither he nor they should be rewarded with citizenship for having done so.
I don't know, I figure that maybe government can at least try to exercise some common sense once in a while, but maybe that's too much to ask.
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It really is that simple.
Yes, I suppose it is for people who don't have much compassion.
We are in total agreement regarding the profiteers of illegal immigration. Unfortunately, the corporate elite own this country, and as long as they do, "enforcement" will continue to be a slap on the wrist.
FWIW, immigration appears to have been in decline for the last 5-6 years and generally this is a 10-12 year trend.
I think enforcement can work, although not having a strong economy for laborers appears to be the biggest deterrent. This trend oddly seems to coincide with the massive shift of manufacturing job growth in China over this same period. Interesting. Could it be that we've just traded in one problem for another?
But, if we allow them to remain, we will be rewarding their parents for breaking our laws. Unfortunately, children often suffer due to their parents' unlawful behavior. We don't make special provisions for the children of citizens who choose to flout our laws. I see no reason the children of illegals should be the exception. Plus, most Dreamies are adults who practice the same lawless behavior as their parents. Some even flaunt their illegal exploits on their website.
Very well expressed and so true. Your so right, if we do allow then to stay here, we will be rewarding the parents, for breaking the law. And it is also sad, because yes the children because of these parents, have suffered. Not right.
I agree with what you say about the dreamies also and if they have parents who have broken the law, are they ok with this.
So true, children of illegals, should in no way no how, be the exception.
I think enforcement can work, although not having a strong economy for laborers appears to be the biggest deterrent. This trend oddly seems to coincide with the massive shift of manufacturing job growth in China over this same period. Interesting. Could it be that we've just traded in one problem for another?
China's wages are jumping real fast. It's becoming CHEAPER to bring back production to the US.
Plus dislike is growing against illegal aliens. The drug wars IN Mexico are turning us Americans against any sort of amnesty.
Well that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I think it's not always necessary to take that approach in any and all circumstances.
Under what circumstances should we allow people to skip our immigration laws? If they get a GED? Live here twenty years? Happen to have a few relatives who live here? At some point you have to draw the line. I believe that line should be drawn in our favor not in favor of an illegal who has shown us great contempt and now wants to be rewarded for it.
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I'm not advocating that he be allowed to bring over anyone else. I'm saying that he, and perhaps others like him, can be an exception under these unusual circumstances. I think they need to provide evidence that they could support themselves without going on to welfare for at least five years and they need to have a spotless record. But if they meet that sniff test, I don't see why you wouldn't want them working. Hell, they're more productive than the 3 million or so native-born Americans we have locked up at any given point in time, and perhaps hundreds of thousands or even millions of others who are taking unemployment benefits.
He's a criminal who's lucky he isn't in jail with them. I'm sorry you think otherwise. We have millions of Americans without jobs. Why do we want to import more to potentially compete with them?
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I think where I'm going with this is that it's going after the employers first and foremost that is going to be the key to slowing illegal immigration. Granted, a raised profile of this issue is also bound to have an effect as well, and there's evidence that all of these things, combined with a bad economy, have slowed illegal entry to a nearly 40-year low in this past year. It's harder for illegals to find work, and it's harder for illegals to find places to live and go to school -- and I don't necessarily have problems with these policies. I have a problem perhaps with what I sometimes see as an obsession by some with this issue, but that aside, many of the policies are hard to argue against in principle.
Then go after the employers. But we've been remarkably generous with illegals by educating their kids and not deporting them immediately. We don't need to hand them even more incentives. FYI, if you want to see obsession go look at the viewpoints of many hispanic officials. They speak of little else other than handing citizenship to people who've freely violated our immigration laws. They only do so because the people in question share an ethnicity with them. Some of us are sick of resources being diverted from our community to benefit foreign nationals. Asking that to end is simply rational public policy.
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I'm talking in the realistic sense here, not in the strictest sense of the law. I just find this obsession with following the letter of the law interesting with regard to the issue of illegal immigration because I see few other issues where people seem obsessed with technicalities of the law itself.
And I see few other issues where foreigners feel so free to dictate what goes on in this country.
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Easy for us to say, but I would imagine not as easy to live by. I know you probably wouldn't care. Speaking of smugness. lol.
When I demand benefits for breaking into a country then you can call me smug.
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I don't know, I figure that maybe government can at least try to exercise some common sense once in a while, but maybe that's too much to ask.
Yes, I suppose it is for people who don't have much compassion.
Common sense would indicate no amnesty for people who've freely broken our immigration laws. Compassion would indicate not punishing our own poor so that you can feel good about yourself or reward members of you own ethnic group.
Under what circumstances should we allow people to skip our immigration laws? If they get a GED? Live here twenty years? Happen to have a few relatives who live here? At some point you have to draw the line. I believe that line should be drawn in our favor not in favor of an illegal who has shown us great contempt and now wants to be rewarded for it.
He's a criminal who's lucky he isn't in jail with them. I'm sorry you think otherwise. We have millions of Americans without jobs. Why do we want to import more to potentially compete with them?
Then go after the employers. But we've been remarkably generous with illegals by educating their kids and not deporting them immediately. We don't need to hand them even more incentives. FYI, if you want to see obsession go look at the viewpoints of many hispanic officials. They speak of little else other than handing citizenship to people who've freely violated our immigration laws. They only do so because the people in question share an ethnicity with them. Some of us are sick of resources being diverted from our community to benefit foreign nationals. Asking that to end is simply rational public policy.
And I see few other issues where foreigners feel so free to dictate what goes on in this country.
When I demand benefits for breaking into a country then you can call me smug.
Common sense would indicate no amnesty for people who've freely broken our immigration laws. Compassion would indicate not punishing our own poor so that you can feel good about yourself or reward members of you own ethnic group.
You said it well. Where is the compassion for American citizens who are bearing the brunt of this illegal invasion? Guess we don't count in the land of compassion by these advocates for illegal aliens.
I think enforcement can work, although not having a strong economy for laborers appears to be the biggest deterrent. This trend oddly seems to coincide with the massive shift of manufacturing job growth in China over this same period. Interesting. Could it be that we've just traded in one problem for another?
We have been told there are approximately 12 million illegal aliens in this country for the past decade. The fact remains, no one, including the government, has a clue as to the actual number. I certainly don't see evidence of a decline in the DC area. If anything, they seem to be drastically increasing. But, given our lax enforcement and the coddling they receive, why would they leave?
Outsourcing to China and India is indeed a problem. If companies aren't sending jobs overseas for cheap labor, they're hiring cheap (illegal) labor here. This is precisely why our middle class is on life support. If the status quo continues, it will ultimately pull the plug.
Under what circumstances should we allow people to skip our immigration laws? If they get a GED? Live here twenty years? Happen to have a few relatives who live here? At some point you have to draw the line. I believe that line should be drawn in our favor not in favor of an illegal who has shown us great contempt and now wants to be rewarded for it.
Sure, if they meet those criteria and have led a clean life, and if it's clear that they didn't intend to come here as free-willed adults but came here as children just tagging along with their families, then yes. I think you want to draw a line because you don't see illegal aliens as humans, you see them as statistics.
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He's a criminal who's lucky he isn't in jail with them. I'm sorry you think otherwise. We have millions of Americans without jobs. Why do we want to import more to potentially compete with them?
LOL. Dude, just getting rid of Mexicans isn't going to necessarily bring Americans more jobs. There could be many reasons why Americans don't have jobs. But to put it into perspective, your day laborer Mexican isn't going to replace some IT guy or some plant manager who lost his job. Similarly, those who lost their jobs aren't going to be automatically qualified to replace the deported handyman sent home to Mexico. Nor would they be qualified to work as a cook in a Mexican restaurant or carniceria. Mexicans have been coming over in fewer and fewer numbers since 2006, and with the exception of a spike in 2004-2006, they've actually been coming over in fewer numbers since about 1999. There's been a decline in the number of illegal immigrants since about 2007 or 2008. It doesn't seem to have helped the average American get his job back, has it?
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Common sense would indicate no amnesty for people who've freely broken our immigration laws. Compassion would indicate not punishing our own poor so that you can feel good about yourself or reward members of you own ethnic group.
That's a bogus argument. People who are obsessing over illegal immigration don't care about the poor in this country; they fear that this country is losing its identity. I can understand that fear on some level, and I'd probably understand it even better if I lived 50 miles from the border. But I'm just saying, it's not about the poor in this country. That's b.s. and you know it. There's nothing that supports the idea that illegals are taking jobs away from the working poor in this country.
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