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Old 11-06-2007, 07:37 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,485,182 times
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I might be wrong here, but I've always had the idea that most american citizens have had at last one ancestor that might have immigrated illegally to the united states.

I think this because so many people came to live the American dream since the dawn of the country, some had to serve in the civil war in order to get their citizenship, others had sponors who helped them, but (imho) the big majority just got here somehow and survived, the main difference might be that before you had to learn english and become as americanized as possible and the population was smaller, but even then there were periods in american history that suffered from anti immigration waves, specially in times of economic woes of massive flows of a particular ethnicity.

the reasons that made me think this is that considering the significant population in America, it is hard to believe that most of the immigrants had an sponsor, civil war didn't last forever so just a few of the immigrants got their citizenship this way, but I might be wrong what are your thoughts?
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Old 11-06-2007, 07:40 AM
 
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The difference now is that we are a "welfare state", so we end up paying for illegals. As you said, in the past, one had to make it on one's own, or return home. We wouldn't mind so much (although we want the laws to be obeyed), if they paid their own freight.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:58 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cousinsal View Post
The difference now is that we are a "welfare state", so we end up paying for illegals. As you said, in the past, one had to make it on one's own, or return home. We wouldn't mind so much (although we want the laws to be obeyed), if they paid their own freight.
Then maybe the welfare state and the current migratory laws aren't suitable for the american system, of coming here, working hard, becoming american building a future for yourself and your family and leaving your positive mark on her.

If this is a fundamental aspect of the american dream and it is what made america, then maybe this welfare state and the current immigration laws are what are destroying her (at least some of the causes) imho and that if you believe it's being destroyed, imho she is just in a chrisalyd stage morphing into something different

at least that's what the voice of intuition is telling me I might be wrong

Last edited by Travelling fella; 11-06-2007 at 09:10 AM..
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:25 AM
 
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Basically, TravellingFella, most European immigrants had no choice but to arrive legally-they had to come by ship, and were "checked out" at immigration stations (such as Ellis Island, NYC). It was very hard to "sneak in". Asians, when they WERE allowed, had to pass through places like Angel Island (San Francisco Bay). Geography made it hard for any of these people to come without being noticed by the authorities.

Mexicans have been coming for centuries--some moved freely across the border and back, many times. Geography was on their side--they could "walk" here, and "walk" back. Decades ago, no one really paid any attention to Mexican illegal immigration. The illegals filled a niche in society "below the radar", and were happy to be here making money. The jobs they did didn't compete with the "gringos", and everyone was happy.

As Cousinsal has alluded, we are now a caring, "welfare state". Many of us want to be a multicultural society, and this means no one is required to really do anything to qualify as an American---according to some people, even becoming a CITIZEN isn't really important. Everyone on American soil has a long list of rights. English isn't required, and "Sanctuary Cities" (and 'Special Order 40') have made it all but impossible to sort things out.

In addition, in our new atmosphere of "rights and protections for all", the illegals have become increasingly emboldened (with lots of moral support from some of us). They have moved far from their traditional "niche", and out into the mainstream American economy. They now are in direct competition, in many cases, with legal American labor, and have become increasingly vocal in demanding their "rights"....and many Americans are paying attention to this (particularly politicians).

In our present-day situation, many illegals seem to have the attitude that "why should I worry about the immigration laws of the US, when I can see that the Americans themselves do not take these laws seriously.? Let the gringos fight it out with each other....but in the meantime, I'm going to continue to live here and make a living for as long as I can"....

Your second post, TravelingFella, reminds me of a quote that I heard (wish I could remember who said it)...it said something like "You can't have a welfare state, if you have open borders"---very simple, yet very profound statement...and much like what you said.
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
3,589 posts, read 3,168,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
I might be wrong here, but I've always had the idea that most american citizens have had at last one ancestor that might have immigrated illegally to the united states.

I think this because so many people came to live the American dream since the dawn of the country, some had to serve in the civil war in order to get their citizenship, others had sponors who helped them, but (imho) the big majority just got here somehow and survived, the main difference might be that before you had to learn english and become as americanized as possible and the population was smaller, but even then there were periods in american history that suffered from anti immigration waves, specially in times of economic woes of massive flows of a particular ethnicity.

the reasons that made me think this is that considering the significant population in America, it is hard to believe that most of the immigrants had an sponsor, civil war didn't last forever so just a few of the immigrants got their citizenship this way, but I might be wrong what are your thoughts?
None of my ancestors were illegal; they immigrated at a point in history when immigration to the USA was fairly open. My fathers' parents are both of German, Scottish, and English extraction with a few other bits thrown in. The most recent immigrants we can trace on that side of the family came to the United States in the 1850s.

My mother's father was pure Connecticut Yankee, and he could trace the majority of his ancestors to pre-Revolution days in New England. The few that came after the Revolution arrived in the late 1700s/early 1800s; there was little concept of legal/illegal immigration at that time. The most recent arrivals were my grandmother's parents, who immigrated from Poland in the early 1900s. They were legal; I found both of their entries on the Ellis Island website...they were fully documented. The website even told me the names of the ships they traveled here on. I never met either of my great-grandparents, but my other relatives told me they rarely spoke anything other than English in public with each other despite the fact that both had accents and both made mistakes frequently. My great-grandfather spoke Russian in addition to Polish and English, but refused to speak it once he arrived in America. My grandmother and her sisters spoke Polish at home and spoke very little English until they started school, but none of them had any trouble picking up the language. Bilingual education was not an option in rural Connecticut in the 1920s.

Our family has had several relatives from Poland immigrate over the decades, but to my knowledge all have done so legally. The most recently-arrived one that I've met came here in the 1980s, and she speaks flawless English and teaches math in New England.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:25 AM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,485,182 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeDallasite View Post
My mother's father was pure Connecticut Yankee, and he could trace the majority of his ancestors to pre-Revolution days in New England. The few that came after the Revolution arrived in the late 1700s/early 1800s; there was little concept of legal/illegal immigration at that time.
what made this change? please tell us what are your thoughts on that?
everyone else?
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:27 AM
 
1,510 posts, read 753,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
Then maybe the welfare state and the current migratory laws aren't suitable for the american system, of coming here, working hard, becoming american building a future for yourself and your family and leaving your positive mark on her.

If this is a fundamental aspect of the american dream and it is what made america, then maybe this welfare state and the current immigration laws are what are destroying her (at least some of the causes) imho and that if you believe it's being destroyed, imho she is just in a chrisalyd stage morphing into something different

at least that's what the voice of intuition is telling me I might be wrong
what a wonderful concept. dont blame the general population for its own trends, blame the people who empower systems that fail us all.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:28 AM
 
1,510 posts, read 753,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeDallasite View Post
None of my ancestors were illegal; they immigrated at a point in history when immigration to the USA was fairly open. My fathers' parents are both of German, Scottish, and English extraction with a few other bits thrown in. The most recent immigrants we can trace on that side of the family came to the United States in the 1850s.
this is in the context of "america". overlooked is the fact that there were unwanted immigrants who established modern "america". a country founded on unwanted immigrants should certainly not be hypocritical enough to shun the next wave.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:34 AM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,105,468 times
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It's a myth that America is a nation of immigrants, most of the 300 plus million Americans here were born in this country and that makes them native to this nation. Natives of a county have the right to enact and enforce laws for the greater good. Which means immigration laws. All illegal aliens are criminals and should be jailed then deported.
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Old 11-06-2007, 11:37 AM
 
1,510 posts, read 753,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye48 View Post
It's a myth that America is a nation of immigrants, most of the 300 plus million Americans here were born in this country and that makes them native to this nation. Natives of a county have the right to enact and enforce laws for the greater good. Which means immigration laws. All illegal aliens are criminals and should be jailed then deported.
give the illegal immigrants a few years to drop all their anchor babies. they will be "born in this country and that makes them native to this nation". what will you do then?
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