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Old 12-07-2014, 09:40 PM
 
11,487 posts, read 5,507,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
This is a common misconception. There's some absurd assumption that just because we produce college graduates, that means that they are competent. Take a look at how many quality people we actually produce. Yes, we're limited to only a handful of decent schools like Stanford, MIT, UMich, UCB, etc.... but they aren't able to produce what we need.
^Nonsense!

We have thousands of American citizen STEM/IT workers who are experienced but unemployed. Meanwhile H1-B visa holders have jobs. To add insult to injury, H1-Bs at best are mediocre and at worst, are downright incompetent.
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Old 12-08-2014, 12:56 AM
 
Location: West Los Angeles
8,830 posts, read 8,963,022 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
This is a common misconception. There's some absurd assumption that just because we produce college graduates, that means that they are competent.
There are plenty of people who have been graduated from accredited schools who cannot find work in the sciences. We have already covered this issue previously in this thread, so there's no point in simply arguing the matter when those of us who have degrees from accredited schools know better.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:10 AM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,122,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
^Nonsense!

We have thousands of American citizen STEM/IT workers who are experienced but unemployed. Meanwhile H1-B visa holders have jobs. To add insult to injury, H1-Bs at best are mediocre and at worst, are downright incompetent.
Experienced in what? I can only speak for the technology field, but we have a bunch of people experienced in outdated technologies. People that didn't keep up and were content with whatever they were doing. Companies today need relevant skills... and competent people.

We do produce these people, but only a limited number of them. The quality of individuals coming out of IIT mirrors that of those coming out of MIT. The issue is that we have people graduating from Penn State, ASU, etc. that don't have a college education nor the relevant skills.

I will agree with you that many of the H1-Bs are just as bad as the people that graduate from our mediocre universities. We need to stop those from coming in the U.S.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:13 AM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,122,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exitus Acta Probat View Post
There are plenty of people who have been graduated from accredited schools who cannot find work in the sciences. We have already covered this issue previously in this thread, so there's no point in simply arguing the matter when those of us who have degrees from accredited schools know better.
Most of the schools in the U.S. are accredited. UoP and ASU are accredited. You would think that means that they are producing high caliber graduates. Unfortunately, they are not. There's a big difference then a graduate from Georgia Tech, UCB, UMich, and ASU. The tech industry is competitive. They need competent people.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:51 AM
 
11,487 posts, read 5,507,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
Experienced in what? I can only speak for the technology field, but we have a bunch of people experienced in outdated technologies. People that didn't keep up and were content with whatever they were doing. Companies today need relevant skills... and competent people.

We do produce these people, but only a limited number of them. The quality of individuals coming out of IIT mirrors that of those coming out of MIT. The issue is that we have people graduating from Penn State, ASU, etc. that don't have a college education nor the relevant skills.

I will agree with you that many of the H1-Bs are just as bad as the people that graduate from our mediocre universities. We need to stop those from coming in the U.S.
Does your company offer to pay for training? Or are they expected to shell out thousands of their own dollars? Or do you meet them halfway? Sorry, but if companies want to retain good employees, they have to offer some help with training.

My husband has been in IT for over 30 years. He has a BA degree from a state school---and are you sitting down? He didn't major in any IT related area. Yet throughout his career, he has received commendations and bonuses for jobs well done. Obviously, he has kept up his skills.

We need to abolish the entire H1-B visa program. It is riddled with fraud and corruption. Plus it's galling to see H1-Bs hold jobs while experienced Americans can't find work. The H1-B visa program gives employers an excuse to not help applicants who have been out of work for so long that their skills have gone rusty, to not offer training. It also gives employers an excuse to not help with relocation costs.

You seem to be fixated on the notion that people who don't graduate from what you consider to be "top schools" can't possibly be competent. Obviously, that's not true. Are you saying that you won't give any applicants the time of day if they don't have degrees from accredited schools that you deem worthy? If the answer is "yes", one can assume that you do this in order to have an excuse to bring in H1-Bs.
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Old 12-08-2014, 03:42 AM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,122,907 times
Reputation: 12779
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
Does your company offer to pay for training? Or are they expected to shell out thousands of their own dollars? Or do you meet them halfway? Sorry, but if companies want to retain good employees, they have to offer some help with training.
Of course! The company invests in employees. 100% for professional training. 80% for academic (employee pays 20%)

Just like any other company in the industry, 20% of your time is set aside for learning (usually informal learning)... which is a necessity in tech.

We don't have a problem retaining employees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post

My husband has been in IT for over 30 years. He has a BA degree from a state school---and are you sitting down? He didn't major in any IT related area. Yet throughout his career, he has received commendations and bonuses for jobs well done. Obviously, he has kept up his skills.
Trades like IT, plumbing, electrical, don't need college degrees. It's great that he has one, but not a necessity. And there are plenty of good state school. Umich, UCB, etc. For computer science, UMD.

However, in the technology industry, it's mostly R&D... and standard academic research methods are a necessity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post

We need to abolish the entire H1-B visa program. It is riddled with fraud and corruption. Plus it's galling to see H1-Bs hold jobs while experienced Americans can't find work. The H1-B visa program gives employers an excuse to not help applicants who have been out of work for so long that their skills have gone rusty, to not offer training. It also gives employers an excuse to not help with relocation costs.
Employers don't need to help people who aren't going to help themselves. If someone doesn't want to stay competitive, that's their prerogative.

We need to do two things. Increase the number of competent individuals we produce, and stop bringing in incompetent immigrants. The program is flawed, but it doesn't need to be abolished.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post

You seem to be fixated on the notion that people who don't graduate from what you consider to be "top schools" can't possibly be competent. Obviously, that's not true. Are you saying that you won't give any applicants the time of day if they don't have degrees from accredited schools that you deem worthy? If the answer is "yes", one can assume that you do this in order to have an excuse to bring in H1-Bs.
As I said, I can only speak for the tech industry. It's extremely competitive and the industry only wants to hire highly competitive people. These companies that were mentioned (Netflix, Intel, etc.), including the one I brought up (HP), are not only looking for someone to fix a computer, or code up some software, or do some networking. They are looking for technologists and computer scientists. And that's where we have a shortage of good people. We are the most technologically advanced country, and we only have a handful of good computer science programs.

We interview from schools all over the nation. We have career service agreements with many schools. However, the vast majority oh qualified applicants are from just 4 schools. We also only hired one h1b this year... and he's an executive from Australia.
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Old 12-08-2014, 03:07 PM
 
11,487 posts, read 5,507,878 times
Reputation: 9863
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
Of course! The company invests in employees. 100% for professional training. 80% for academic (employee pays 20%)

Just like any other company in the industry, 20% of your time is set aside for learning (usually informal learning)... which is a necessity in tech..

Employers don't need to help people who aren't going to help themselves. If someone doesn't want to stay competitive, that's their prerogative.

.

Okay, do you see the contradiction? You say that your company "invests in employees".

Then you say that "employers don't need to help people", etc.


So...if someone has been out of work for so long that their skills have gone rusty, where is that person going to find the money to pay for a training course if they don't have a job?

Your company could bring on people like that, train them and even have them sign an agreement stating that in exchange for the training, they agree to stay with the company for X amount of time. If they leave before then, they must reimburse the company in full for the training.

It's obvious that your company won't help with relocation costs. Again, such help could be given with an agreement similar to the above mentioned.

Yes, the H1-B visa program needs to be scrapped and rewritten. How about making employers have to pay such a large fee to sponsor an applicant that it makes them think twice? On the flip side, offer up tax breaks for every American they hire and train or hire and pay for relocation costs. In other words, make it more attractive to hire Americans.
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Old 12-08-2014, 04:48 PM
 
209 posts, read 96,965 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armourereric View Post
There was a CD thread over at Employment several months ago. HP ran ads for the Bay area requiring a Masters in Computer Science, paying minimum wage. Numerous Americans still applied and were interviewed, all were told at the interview that Americans would not be hired. HP then got 10000 H1-B visas to fill the same slots. The brainchild behind this: Meg Whittman, former CA Republican Governor candidate, and now HP CEO. And people wonder why Brown won.
Ick, you're making me feel I'm back in IT! We had so many discussions about this when I was working.
1. IT was my career that has ended a bit early due to the influx and outsourcing of cheap labor.
2. An Exec at (I'm just going to be vague) a Fortune 500 company where I worked made a statement about her (their) ability to hire foreign labor at a much lower price with fewer people doing the work and they produced a better end product. She should have followed me after I was finally laid off.
3. Near the end of my career, I worked at an online publishing company doing many different jobs. But my role for one project was supposed to be software testing. The developers were in India. The project manager was a couple hours away at our headquarters. I couldn't test because the verbiage on the website (it couldn't be published the way it was) was horrendous. As a tester, I had to open problem tickets but they weren't testing errors, they were grammatical errors. I told the PM that I had become a highly-paid proofreader.
4. As a manager myself, I had to advertise to fill slots in my testing departments. I couldn't verify the education but I could catch workers lying on their resume. If they wrote HTML, Java, etc. in their skillset, I'd ask specific questions about it. 100% of the time they said they didn't know it but tested applications/programs that ran on it. So, they didn't know it. H1Bs and I understand the need for a better life and what has happened is we are going to be a third world country. Whitman would like that.

Last bit of garbage: A friend works at a Fortune 100 company where I spent a bit more than half my career. I quit and she stayed on ultimately going back as a contractor. Work was being sent to Brazil and employees were angry. The company's response, "If you want to continue to work for us, go to Brazil and we'll keep you on."
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Old 12-08-2014, 04:53 PM
 
209 posts, read 96,965 times
Reputation: 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
Okay, do you see the contradiction? You say that your company "invests in employees".

Then you say that "employers don't need to help people", etc.


So...if someone has been out of work for so long that their skills have gone rusty, where is that person going to find the money to pay for a training course if they don't have a job?

Your company could bring on people like that, train them and even have them sign an agreement stating that in exchange for the training, they agree to stay with the company for X amount of time. If they leave before then, they must reimburse the company in full for the training.

It's obvious that your company won't help with relocation costs. Again, such help could be given with an agreement similar to the above mentioned.

Yes, the H1-B visa program needs to be scrapped and rewritten. How about making employers have to pay such a large fee to sponsor an applicant that it makes them think twice? On the flip side, offer up tax breaks for every American they hire and train or hire and pay for relocation costs. In other words, make it more attractive to hire Americans.
1. Yes, my skills got rusty and while I considered going back to learn things like automated testing tools, until or if I got a job, I'd likely forget how to use the testing tools.
2. Many years ago, companies paid to educate you (or they did where I worked). These days, why bother.
3. It goes beyond the H1-Bs and they're cheap labor. America won't scrap and rewrite something that obtains then produces cheap garbage.
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Old 12-09-2014, 06:41 PM
 
Location: West Los Angeles
8,830 posts, read 8,963,022 times
Reputation: 9075
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
Most of the schools in the U.S. are accredited. UoP and ASU are accredited. You would think that means that they are producing high caliber graduates. Unfortunately, they are not. There's a big difference then a graduate from Georgia Tech, UCB, UMich, and ASU. The tech industry is competitive. They need competent people.
And somebody from an Indian diploma mill is competent?
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