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Well, I'm sure not going to fight with you guys so this will be my only post on this subject.
I couldn't agree more that these two guys need to be strung up by their testicles. That much goes without saying. There is no reason whatsoever to do what they did and the price that they pay should be steep.
My argument comes in when people make it sound like they do this because they are illegal immigrants. From the sounds of this thread, one would think no born and raised (legal) American had ever committed such a crime. Take a good look at the Shasta and Dylan Groene case just to name one example.
I for one, am outraged regardless of who commits a crime against any innocent. I don't care what nationality he/she is or where he/she is from. A heinous crime is a heinous crime. But it isn't just the illegals.
This thread wreaks of hate mongers. It doesn't sound to me that you care about the victim. It sounds more as if you hate the fact that an illegal immigrant did the wrongdoing and that is the primary concern.
That's my two cents for what it's worth.
I agree with you and typically avoid the posts that insinuate that the crimes are committed due to these individuals being illegal. That's the same notion put out there about blacks. I do think some of the anger being shared here, (but is missed due to the ethnic/nationality/racial undertones) is that we have enough of these crimes being committed by Americans and our jails are overcrowded as it is. Having people here illegally committing these same crimes makes the matter even more intolerable. It just begs the question for why we aren't controlling our borders so that we can get our own issues under control without having matters exacerbated by illegals.
I think of it like this:
I have kids and at times they may break something like a window on our house. Maybe scratch the paint on the car. Its annoying but its less annoying than say the neighbors kid doing the same thing. Especially if the neighbors kid was in the yard uninvited and as a matter of fact told he was not welcome.
Add to it.
The neighbors kid snuck into your home while you were out and broke the window from the inside!!
Yes we have our own criminals too many.... We have a right to control who enters. Illegals circumvent our immigration system and complain we are not compassionate, understanding and tolerant. Not all commit violent crimes but each and every one of them are committing crimes every second they are in this country.
Well, I seem to be the only one who recognizes the racism in so many of these posts and the irony of the violent responses. "Illegals!' Will someone stop throwing that word around and start humanizing people again? Doesn't it seem obvious that the same dehumanizing psychology played a huge roll in these girls murders? How many of the guys on this forum are unaware of the total absent minded violence of their own response? No, it was two men who just happened to be illegal immigrants who committed this horrible crime. I could hate MEN for doing this sort of thing because they were just as much MEN as they were 'illegals.' Can we kick all the testosterone fueled violent men who beat, rape and kill wives, daughters, sisters and other women every day out of this country along with the 'illegals'? Why is their citizenship status important? I know of horrible brutal murders of women committed by men whose status is unquestionably USA. So how about lets first give them a FAIR trial and see if they really are guilty (even confessions can be coerced), then judge them and condemn them not on their race or immigration status but on the horror of their actions. And will all you blowhards stop pretending that violence in response to this crime will bring justice. What will bring justice is an end to an acceptance of violence against women, violence which at one end of the spectrum included denegration and name calling and which at the other ends in rape and murder.
As far as I've read in these posts, nobody has made such a statement. I'll be the first to admit that the USA has more than enough of its own perverts, druggies, killers, rapists, etc. The only point most of us are trying to make is that with the addition of 15-20 million illegals in the USA, obviously crime statistics are only going to get worse. This isn't to suggest that illegals are all hardened criminals, but to show that if even one illegal has commited crime in the USA, then that's one more crime that could've been averted had said illegal not been here.
I hate to quote myself but maybe this helps to clarify my view on this. As far as calling our uninvited guests illegals...they're not here legaly under rule of law so I guess the name fits! As far as racism is concerned, I'm against illegals (that's non citizens) of ALL races. As far as I'm concerned, legals and illegals are both human, so I'm not sure why calling someone that has no right to reside within the boarders of the US an illegal would be considered dehumanizing. Oppinions and emotions run high on BOTH sides of the fence regarding the illegal immigration issue. Obviously, this is a sign of higher thought; which to my knowlege is something only a human is cabable of.
Last edited by catfishing; 09-29-2008 at 10:38 PM..
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 19,432,243 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by URNanimal
Well, I seem to be the only one who recognizes the racism in so many of these posts and the irony of the violent responses. "Illegals!' Will someone stop throwing that word around and start humanizing people again? Doesn't it seem obvious that the same dehumanizing psychology played a huge roll in these girls murders? How many of the guys on this forum are unaware of the total absent minded violence of their own response? No, it was two men who just happened to be illegal immigrants who committed this horrible crime. I could hate MEN for doing this sort of thing because they were just as much MEN as they were 'illegals.' Can we kick all the testosterone fueled violent men who beat, rape and kill wives, daughters, sisters and other women every day out of this country along with the 'illegals'? Why is their citizenship status important? I know of horrible brutal murders of women committed by men whose status is unquestionably USA. So how about lets first give them a FAIR trial and see if they really are guilty (even confessions can be coerced), then judge them and condemn them not on their race or immigration status but on the horror of their actions.
Quote:
And will all you blowhards stop pretending that violence in response to this crime will bring justice.
What will bring justice is an end to an acceptance of violence against women, violence which at one end of the spectrum included denegration and name calling and which at the other ends in rape and murder.
What would bring justice is full enforcement of our existing Immigration laws.
is this really about the death of these 2 girls or is it about furthering your political opinion and usimg them as fodder?
I hate to have to quote myself to make a point, but as you've apparently missed the reasoning behind the anger of American citizens, I feel the need to respond to you without having to retype everything. By the way, this is about the death of one teenage girl at the hands of two animals. However, that is a detail that I would expect you to miss considering the fact that you are much more concerned with the rights of people in this country illegally than you are with those of your fellow citizens.
If this were an isolated incident, perhaps you wouldn't see the enormous amount of frustration and anger on the part of American citizens whose government is clearly asleep at the wheel.
As people continue to justify illegal immigrant presence in this country, crime statistics continue to rise at an alarming rate.
I don't think that there is one person on this forum who is discounting the amount of crime committed by people who are in this country LEGALLY. God knows that there are plenty of American citizens willing to fold, spindle, and mutilate their fellow citizens. The lunacy behind your apologist attitude is that you see no problem in importing more simply because "the majority are good people." Well, if these "good people" were coming to this country legally instead of flagrantly violating sovereign United States law to do so--the chances of importing even more violent criminals lessens. I seriously doubt that you would continue adocating the odds game (most are good people as opposed to criminals) if you or someone you loved became a victim of illegal immigrant crime.
Each and every one of these people was someone's child, someone's parent or spouse, the love of someone's life--all dead unnecessarily. Each of their killers were in this country illegally. If they had been stopped at the border by a government that actually cares about the lives of their citizens, each of these people would likely still be alive today.
Therein lies the frustration and the anger of every person on this board who advocates a secure border and enforcement of our immigration laws. None of these people should be dead at the hands of illegal aliens--none of them. And as long as we allow people to come into this country at will with no sort of verification or substantiation, American citizens will die at the hands of people who have no legal right to be here.
I suppose that as long as you are insulated from the negative effects of illegal immigration, you can continue to believe that all the people coming to this country in violation of our federal laws are good people who mean you no harm. Consequently you can continue to stand up against what you perceive as racism on the part of people who are sick and tired of watching their fellow citizens die at the hands of people who shouldn't even be in this country to begin with. American lives are not collateral damage. These deaths were preventable and THAT is why we are angry.
As far as refraining from the use of the word illegal? As my grandmother used to say, "you can put a cat in the oven, but that don't make it a biscuit." They're called illegal aliens because they are in this country illegally. What part of illegal is so difficult to comprehend?
Well, I seem to be the only one who recognizes the racism in so many of these posts and the irony of the violent responses. "Illegals!' Will someone stop throwing that word around and start humanizing people again? Doesn't it seem obvious that the same dehumanizing psychology played a huge roll in these girls murders? How many of the guys on this forum are unaware of the total absent minded violence of their own response? No, it was two men who just happened to be illegal immigrants who committed this horrible crime. I could hate MEN for doing this sort of thing because they were just as much MEN as they were 'illegals.' Can we kick all the testosterone fueled violent men who beat, rape and kill wives, daughters, sisters and other women every day out of this country along with the 'illegals'? Why is their citizenship status important? I know of horrible brutal murders of women committed by men whose status is unquestionably USA. So how about lets first give them a FAIR trial and see if they really are guilty (even confessions can be coerced), then judge them and condemn them not on their race or immigration status but on the horror of their actions. And will all you blowhards stop pretending that violence in response to this crime will bring justice. What will bring justice is an end to an acceptance of violence against women, violence which at one end of the spectrum included denegration and name calling and which at the other ends in rape and murder.
Take your 'racism' crap and dump in the garbage can, please. Much like the little boy who cried 'wolf' once too often--------------no one is buying it anymore, even if there an element of truth to it.
The cold reality is the illegals regardless of race/ethnicity need to leave the USA post haste. Too; with the growing downturn in the economy, the danger to illegals from American hotheads is now too great------------get out while the getting is good.
Well, I seem to be the only one who recognizes the racism in so many of these posts and the irony of the violent responses. "Illegals!' Will someone stop throwing that word around and start humanizing people again? Doesn't it seem obvious that the same dehumanizing psychology played a huge roll in these girls murders? How many of the guys on this forum are unaware of the total absent minded violence of their own response? No, it was two men who just happened to be illegal immigrants who committed this horrible crime. I could hate MEN for doing this sort of thing because they were just as much MEN as they were 'illegals.' Can we kick all the testosterone fueled violent men who beat, rape and kill wives, daughters, sisters and other women every day out of this country along with the 'illegals'? Why is their citizenship status important? I know of horrible brutal murders of women committed by men whose status is unquestionably USA. So how about lets first give them a FAIR trial and see if they really are guilty (even confessions can be coerced), then judge them and condemn them not on their race or immigration status but on the horror of their actions. And will all you blowhards stop pretending that violence in response to this crime will bring justice. What will bring justice is an end to an acceptance of violence against women, violence which at one end of the spectrum included denegration and name calling and which at the other ends in rape and murder.
We have laws, and we apply 'labels' to those who violate our laws. According to our immigration laws, foreigners residing in our country are referred to as aliens. Aliens residing in our country in violation of our immigration laws are appropriately labeled as illegal. That label is neither dehumanizing nor racist. It simply differentiates between authorized and unauthorized immigration status.
Why is their immigration status relevant? Why do we distinguish between an invited guest and a burglar?
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Violence brings more violence
