Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So then why are so many pro illigeals pissed off? (they haven't read the law)
You'd have to ask them, I'm not pro illegal, I oppose the law because it infringes on the 4th Amendment rights of Americans, not illegals. If I and other Americans can be excluded from this law, I'll stop criticizing it.
I love the attempts to find any way to discredit this law and to twist in knots to find logic. You can't enforce it because it will lead to profiling which is unfair and mean. Now, the argument is that it can't work anyway because "the illegal immigrants in Arizona fit a very specific ethnic/racial profile." By that rationale, why not profile? You concede that the profile fits. This very argument demonstates the ridiculous nature of politcal correctness.
In another thread, I offered the following as possible contributors to probable cause beyond profiling and got no reponse. I'll try again.
I would consider the following as possible contributors to probable cause, particularly if more than one is present:
1. Fleeing from police
2. Having no ID
3. Having 5 ID's
4. Not speaking any English
5. Driving an unlicensed vehicle
6. Driving a stolen vehicle
7. Driving a moving truck with 50 people crammed into the back
8. Not being able to provide an address
9. Not being able to provide any information that comes up on the police computer system in their cars under the name you provide.
10. Not being able to provide a cohesive response if asked about employment
Before you respond, I will say that these do not prove illegal status, and they may not necessarily differentiate illegal status from other types of possible crimes. However, neither of those are the standard for the establishment of probable cause.
You'd have to ask them, I'm not pro illegal, I oppose the law because it infringes on the 4th Amendment rights of Americans, not illegals. If I and other Americans can be excluded from this law, I'll stop criticizing it.
It has been demonstrated to you that the courts have decided that probable cause allows for questioning and search and has decided that the presence of cause means that the authorities are not in violation of the 4th Amendment. This law specifies that probable cause must exist and can not be based on race. Therefore, this law does not violate the 4th Amendment. This poinnt has been made countless times. Please offer some substance to substantiate the claim that the 4th Amendment is violated.
This bill will be a huge, and I mean huge, help when approaching drunk driving illegals. This situation happens all too often. They always flee the scene of accident, even when they kill other motorists/pedestrians.
I didn't bring up that scenario, malumute did, I just responded. As I stated , without racial profiling LE are extremely limited. The other option is to check everyone they come across indiscriminately, not efficient and too time consuming.
Quote:
if the law is followed to the letter and bars racial profiling and only permits law enforcement agents to question people breaking the law, the number of arrests are going to be minimal.
As I stated, not the intent of this law to make arrests, profile or check everyone's "proof of citizenship". It is a tool to verify legal status if there is suspicion of an illegal status during a legal stop to facilitate in deporting illegal aliens.
You'd have to ask them, I'm not pro illegal, I oppose the law because it infringes on the 4th Amendment rights of Americans, not illegals. If I and other Americans can be excluded from this law, I'll stop criticizing it.
But you cannot be excluded from it if you are an American. This is a law of the state; you cannot be excluded from a state law while inside of the state. The law is not unconstitutional, if so show me the section of the law that does this.
My guess is you are afraid you can be profiled. This is a real problem, as real as it is for a white dude to be labeled a racist just for being white. Sometimes laws are inconvenient for some but in the long run benefit the whole.
This law was not meant to COMPLETELY wipe out illegal immigration in Arizona. This law was meant to be another powerful tool for LE. Just because it doesn't solve the problem completely, it shouldn't be enforced? No law short of rounding up every person in Arizona and manually checking their immigration status will solve this problem completely - but that's unconstitutional. Arizona is taking bites out of the problem and is trying to be as constitutional as they can about it.
The racial profiling crowd is so full of themselves because they are still stuck with the notion that police can pull people over while walking and ask them for their papers. Seriously, I have seen people on the Huffington Post comments section still write this even yesterday - Obviously these are people who did not read the bill.
If anything, this law is also a deterrent. It's not so much a matter of enforcing the law than it is having the law. The state of Arizona has told the illegal alien sector that they will not be a state welcoming and paying for them.
I didn't bring up that scenario, malumute did, I just responded. As I stated , without racial profiling LE are extremely limited. The other option is to check everyone they come across indiscriminately, not efficient and too time consuming.
Everyone that LE stops already is asked for ID that the officer checks out for authenticity. If the officer has 'suspicion' (as defined in many other posts) that the driver might be an illegal he can now check and hold the illegal, instead of letting him/her go back onto the streets to cause more mayhem.
Time involved would be no different than it is now. If even one drunk driver is taken off the road, then the law will work.
Yes, the LE needs to check EVERYONE they stop.
If the only time you are going to ask for proof of documentation is during an arrest than the total percentage of illegal immigrants you are going to arrest will be minimal. There are hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants that live in the shadows and don't get arrested. Without racial profiling how will you find them? Ask every citizen you pull over? Not practical or efficient.
You are just WISHING that this turns into racial profiling. You are praying for it. YES, YOU ASK EVERY CITIZEN YOU PULL OVER, DUH!!!!
BTW, they don't have to be arrested, they can just be stopped for something.
I would consider the following as possible contributors to probable cause, particularly if more than one is present:
1. Fleeing from police - This is probable cause for being an illegal immigrant? WTF. For being a criminal yes, but an illegal immigrant.
2. Having no ID - So not having ID is good enough reason to suspect someone is illegal. WTF
3. Having 5 ID's - WTF, this is the opposite of #2
4. Not speaking any English - Hundreds of thousands of tourists, legal residents, students on VISA's, and even citizens don't speak English
5. Driving an unlicensed vehicle - what does this have to do with illegals?
6. Driving a stolen vehicle - again, how is this unique to illegals
7. Driving a moving truck with 50 people crammed into the back - Agreed, probably cause
8. Not being able to provide an address - Anyone living here for longer than a month can give you an address, unless they are retarded.
9. Not being able to provide any information that comes up on the police computer system in their cars under the name you provide. - I don't know how accessible the info on every person born in the US is to LE agencies. If some cop in Marengo Illinois can instantly pull up the name, SS# , DOB, photo, of every person living in the US, that is scary to me. Big Brother.
10. Not being able to provide a cohesive response if asked about employment - Give me a freakin break, unemployment is at 11%
Before you respond, I will say that these do not prove illegal status, and they may not necessarily differentiate illegal status from other types of possible crimes. However, neither of those are the standard for the establishment of probable cause.
With the exception of #7, thist list is bogus. #9 doesn't seem possible, if indeed it is possible, which I doubt, it would scare me.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
)
