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All of you "Occupy Wall Street" types (aka The Great Unwashed) can go take a flying leap off the Brooklyn Bridge IMHO. U.S. Corporations have done more to raise the standard of living for Americans than the U.S. Government ever has or ever could. This OWS is a bunch of B.S. being pushed forward by the re-elect Obama crowd. He can't claim anything positive in his first 3 years, so he is going with the negative for the final year.
This thread has gotten off track by the OWS mentality in their Blame-the-Successful whining.
Kanhawk, your situation is similar to mine in that I only started saving 16 years ago, and then using mutual funds, which is what your 401(k) is probably still invested through. The difference is that 6 years ago I ditched the mutual funds, after mild 10-year gains, and went into direct investment myself.
The way to financial success is to own a business in an important industry. If one cannot own a business outright, then partial ownership, through stocks, is the next best thing. U.S. corporations lead the world in the production of goods and services, and are still the envy in regards to innovation.
If your 401(k) has the option, take a look at the sovereign debt of non-European nations. I use a closed-end fund (GIM) and an ETF (ELD) to get exposure to the debt of countries like South Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey, Brazil, Sweden and etc. They both have decent distribution yields (4-8%) and you can either take the monthly payout in cash, or re-invest in more shares. Yes, the prices are dropping somewhat now, but that means that the yields are going up.
I am a contrarian in that when prices drop, I get happy. Jeremy Siegel has an excellent analysis of the yield versus price issue in his book The Future for Investors. It is actually better that prices stay down rather than racing to the sun. Prices going sideways drives out the speculators and allows the investors to build bigger positions at lower prices. As they say in North Dakota "Fifty below keeps the riff-raff out." We'll see what winter does with The Great Unwashed.
Thank you Teak. You too Mathjak! Too many 9% isn't 'exciting'...they dont understand compounding interest very well I'd guess. I've taken some hits but the market has improved my standard of living over the past 20 years.
As many of you know, I work for Big Oil...and proud to admit it. We do a dirty job that many hate, but everyone loves to use the products we make. Gasoline, cosmetics, rubber, plastics, paint, soap etc. I need the OWS to start bathing more...I'm worried about my water and soap stocks.
Over the past 15 years I have invested quite a bit of my 401k in the stock index funds. The Dow and S&P are no higher right now than they were 10 or 12 years ago. I have 9 years to go until I retire and I am beginning to think I am going to be a lot less well off than I planned.
Should investing in stocks have been left the clever financiers instead of pushing so many middle class workers into stocks with these 401k plans?
With each passing year, I am feeling like a bigger sucker all the time and don't know what to do to make up for this terrible long term stock market performance.
So you total retirement years of investing was 24 years?
It comes down to what you invested in, what kind of funds were invested in, asset allocation, etc.
The next 9 years will be very crucial and I would keep a close eye on it every now and then.
I don't know what you consider middle class but if you are hungry for money and want to learn, be persistent and have patience then anyone can succeed in the stock market.
Thank you Teak. You too Mathjak! Too many 9% isn't 'exciting'...they dont understand compounding interest very well I'd guess. I've taken some hits but the market has improved my standard of living over the past 20 years.
As many of you know, I work for Big Oil...and proud to admit it. We do a dirty job that many hate, but everyone loves to use the products we make. Gasoline, cosmetics, rubber, plastics, paint, soap etc. I need the OWS to start bathing more...I'm worried about my water and soap stocks.
Yes, I am worried about my P&G shares right now....
I suspect that once winter sets in, the bongo-beaters will move indoors and then their unwashed aspect will become noticeable olfactorily, and then it will sputter to a stinking end.
The Wall Street Journal is reporting a shortage of farm workers for Idaho, Georgia and elsewhere. If those Trust-Fund babies really do want a job....naw, that's a dumb idea. Doubt the reporters would follow them out there so what's the point? Can't beat on a bongo and pick potatoes at the same time, and if the world can't see you doing that, why bother?
I'll take a mild stab at advice for those frustrated with their 401k performance.
One, can you arrange for a self-directed 401k? My former employer's plan allowed that. Your contributions are tax-free, but you are not limited to investments only in the 401k menu. You can invest in anything via a 401k brokerage account. Eureka! - you now have control.
Two, if your plan doesn't allow for self-direction, and you are 55, does your plan allow for in-service rollovers to an IRA? Set up an IRA brokerage account at Schwab, Fidelity, Vanguard, wherever and once a year rollover your 401k money to that and, again, self-direct your investments. You can buy any fund, ETF, etc. that way. Also, much easier to get your money when it is in an IRA. Should interest rates ever improve, set up an IRA at a bank and do a rollover into a high-rate bank CD.
Three, you can't blindly throw money at these funds and expect a decent result. They need to be strategically chosen, monitored and REBALANCED annually at least.
Four, if you can't or don't want to do any of those things, make consistent deposits into your 401k's GIC/stable asset choice and leave it at that. At least your principal is reasonably secure and the deposits and earnings are tax-free.
All the tools are listed in this thread. It doesn't have to be complicated.
Has little to do with an anti-corporate message? Well, they (The Great Unwashed) say otherwise..
Right, if you listen to the general message being given it has little to do with an "anti-corporate" message. But its a loosely organized group of people, they all don't think the same things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teak
No, these are the same young Trust-Fund babies who disrupted the meetings in Seattle and other global summit sites.
Except for the fact that the movement has grew well past a small group of folks....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teak
I liked what I read about the governor of Florida wanting to cut funding for anthropology programs and add funding for math and science instruction.
That isn't surprising...of course Anthropology is a science so your sentence doesn't make much sense in the first place.... Ironically, this is just an anti-science effort....
I hope that the ponzi scheme crashes; that way, I can buy more shares of such corporate -EVVVVIIILLLLLL- giants as Coca-Cola, Chevron, and Kimberly-Clark. The Great Unwashed need something to eat and drink while they discuss blood-in-the-streets and corporate fascism. They need petrol to get to and from the rallies. They need something to wipe off the rain from their bongo drums.
Right....but people don't have super bowl tickets in their retirement portfolios and they don't make the same sorts of mistakes with them.
Also, if there was actually a revolution in this country your common stocks could very well be worth nothing afterwards. The value of stocks also depends on our particular legal structure. Revolution is the extreme, but smaller changes can also have an effect as well.
Regardless, a privatized retirement system via 401(k)'s extra suffers from the same sort of problems as pensions. Both are ponzi like. The only difference is who the burdens get placed on, in the former case its workers in the later businesses. So yes, the middle-class did get "suckered".....
Right....but people don't have super bowl tickets in their retirement portfolios and they don't make the same sorts of mistakes with them.
Also, if there was actually a revolution in this country your common stocks could very well be worth nothing afterwards. The value of stocks also depends on our particular legal structure. Revolution is the extreme, but smaller changes can also have an effect as well.
Regardless, a privatized retirement system via 401(k)'s extra suffers from the same sort of problems as pensions. Both are ponzi like. The only difference is who the burdens get placed on, in the former case its workers in the later businesses. So yes, the middle-class did get "suckered".....
You say you want to have a revolution, well you know....
If there is a revolution then I doubt that the bongo-beaters will come out on top either. Farmers outside the 'dust bowl' area did all right during the Depression. Although there wasn't much money for new shoes, they did have food to eat.
I think that you throw the "ponzi" prize around little too much. Ponzi schemes work by having the money from later "investors" given to early "investors" to keep the illusion going that money is being made. Stock investing is not a Ponzi scheme. Corporations actually provide goods and services, and make sales and profits which can be distributed in part as dividends.
If the government falls apart, and armed gangs take to the streets, then yes, a stock portfolio won't be worth much, but then few things will be of value outside guns, seeds, wind-mills and water. Bongos might be used to store seeds, I suppose.
That isn't surprising...of course Anthropology is a science so your sentence doesn't make much sense in the first place.... Ironically, this is just an anti-science effort....
The governor of Florida specifically highlighted anthropology as a study less important than the study of math, science, and engineering. I think that most educated adults would understand science to mean the basic sciences, such as chemistry, physics, and biology, as opposed to the social "sciences" which are man-made attempts at making the study of cultures and societies into a serious effort. It can be a serious study, but few jobs exist, eh? Why is that?
I quote: We don’t need a lot more anthropologists in the state. It’s a great degree if people want to get it, but we don’t need them here. I want to spend our dollars giving people science, technology, engineering, and math degrees. That’s what our kids need to focus all their time and attention on, those types of degrees, so when they get out of school, they can get a job.
Florida does need a few anthropologists, but not a lot. That's what he was saying. Better for our kids to major in a field that can employ them. Not a bad idea. It also turns out that one of his daughters got a degree in anthropology but did not go into work in that field.
Let me know the next time you hire an anthropologist; I will eat my words.
The equity markets have a ponzi like structure....the value of equities depends entirely on the willingness and ability for future workers, investors, etc to buy them.
sounds like what i do for a living. im a wholesaler. i buy a box and i sell a box for a profit. been doing that for 40 years and never knew i had a ponzi scheme going.
your theory is not quite right . the only reason people will pay more for something is if they feel the company is worth more. they either feel its worth more now or in the future. not much different than buying any buisiness that has blue sky priced into it.
Last edited by mathjak107; 10-18-2011 at 02:41 AM..
Right....but people don't have super bowl tickets in their retirement portfolios and they don't make the same sorts of mistakes with them.
Also, if there was actually a revolution in this country your common stocks could very well be worth nothing afterwards. The value of stocks also depends on our particular legal structure. Revolution is the extreme, but smaller changes can also have an effect as well.
Regardless, a privatized retirement system via 401(k)'s extra suffers from the same sort of problems as pensions. Both are ponzi like. The only difference is who the burdens get placed on, in the former case its workers in the later businesses. So yes, the middle-class did get "suckered".....
whats good or bad for stocks is good or bad for any private company as well.
just like there are private companies who did well during the recession there are public companies that did well. .
let me tell you if the value of the 500 largest companies in this country went to zero what do you think any other business will be worth worth?
while laws can and do effect public companies the same laws can be put in place to effect private companies and taxation. how many owners a company has may be a moot point .
Last edited by mathjak107; 10-18-2011 at 03:57 AM..
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You too Mathjak! Too many 9% isn't 'exciting'...they dont understand compounding interest very well I'd guess. I've taken some hits but the market has improved my standard of living over the past 20 years.
