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I think there's more to it than that. Younger families these days are busy. Frequently - both spouses work. Kids have more organized activities than you can shake a stick at. And times are tough financially for a lot of people.
I think that people will go places if they're fun and affordable. The zoo (a bargain - $95 for a family membership for a year) is almost always crowded when we go there. Downtown - the Suns games (they almost always have some kind of special) get a decent crowd. So does the Fair. The Gator Bowl parade. A lot of the "popular" shows at the FTU Center are sell-outs or near sell-outs.
As far as the Jaguars are concerned - I think poor sales reflect poor performance and - more important - pretty high prices for average people who live here (price the games like Suns games and they'll sell out ).
You're right about anti-tax sentiment. I think it's partially a result of the times. But people are skeptical when they look at boondoogles like the Skyway or tax breaks for "luxury" apartments downtown. An extra $100/year in taxes may not seem like a lot to a lot of people - but it's a year's worth of admissions to the zoo for a family that might not be able to afford more in the way of family entertainment. Robyn
What I have noticed is that the only people who work/care about downtown and really the city as a whole are the grassroots people who live in the core area and the business leaders who run their business out of the area and live in Ortega, Avondale, or San Marco. There are some suburbanites who come in for events, but otherwise they really don't realize the potential, care about the potential, or understand how having a fully realized-potential downtown could benefit the city from a budget perspective, an economic perspective, and a cultural perspective. Part of that has to do with who relocates here and part of that has to do with a fairly dumb overall populace (the numbers prove it guys so sorry if that is offensive).
Charlotte's citizenry seems to only care about Uptown. Sure some people there will live 25 miles away, but they want to work, eat, and play in Uptown, and the political leadership/vision there is phenominal.
Jacksonville leaders (from the FTU to the mayor to biz leaders to us grassroots people) need to do a better job of explaining how subsidizing and providing incentives for downtown and urban areas in general is a lot less expensive from a tax perspective and a quality of life perspective than subsidizing and providing incentives for suburban or urban sprawl.
And I agree that some of the landlords in downtown are real idiots. Chew is being forced to move to the 5 Points area because due to its success it needs to expand, and the landlord does not want to provide realistic rates or allow Chew to expand in his building, so the idiot would rather see one of the most popular/profitable businesses in downtown leave his building for a completely different neighborhood. Chris Hionedes' son (I forget the name of his development group - responsible for the Ivy, and basically most of the bars/new restaurants downtown) sees great success. He is a young guy with a head on his shoulder, passion and vision, and he is able to open successful business after successful business in his buildings. He is the only one I can think of.
And I've been accused of being a wealthy elite type of person .
I don't know who's typical in this metro area. I know I'm not. Perhaps my employees aren't either. My housekeepers are women who used to work at Vistakon doing IT clerical kind of work. Then they had a "buyout" (alternative was to be laid off). They work about 50-60 hours a week - at little more than minimum wage (I'm a very good gig in their world and pay a lot more than that). They haven't been able to take a vacation in more than a year.
The guy who does my home repair jobs was the construction superintendent when I built my house. He hasn't had a steady job for years now (since the builder he worked for went under). Then there's the guy who does my pressure washing. The guy who sprays my weeds. The people who pick up our garbage and deliver our mail. Etc. - etc. I can tell you that these people are extremely grateful for Christmas envelopes (they act as if people here don't usually hand them out - and I suspect that's true).
Not only can't these people afford a place like Chew - they're lucky to afford Golden Corral once a week.
They don't care about downtown - and couldn't afford to do anything there even if they did. They're just living week by week. Robyn
^^^I hate to break it to you, but I don't see how any of that is relevant and I don't know where in this thread you were labeled as a wealthy elite type person.
Back to topic at hand, in any city there are people who are living day by day (I just hung out with a woman from Memphis who needed pads and had just been beaten...of course she isn't eating out at a nice restaurant).
The whole city is not comprised of these people. If there are enough people in this town who can support stores like Louis Vuitton at SJTC and all the other retail outlets and restaurants scattered about there are enough people who can pay for these same establishments if they are located in another location, say downtown (like that will ever happen...LV in downtown). Also, in this economy even rich people are struggling because with layoffs, early retirements, and paycuts combined with hefty mortgages, investments, and kids things become tight. However, in Springfield where there is a mix of middle class and poor, I read about and occasionally witness acts of kindness and neighborhood support that are frankly unparalleled in richer/suburban parts of town (Jerry Moran, the chef of La Cena downtown just bought Miss Maggie a new fridge for instance, and all of the active residents just contributed to a simple neighborhood beautification project on a streetside/street corner...plantings and stuff like that).
Robyn, every city has poor people. Every city has rich people. And most cities have a middle class. It is clear that the poor people aren't going to be the ones to revitalize downtown or any area just like it isn't poor people who are going to pull us out of this recession. My point/sentiment is that the middle class and upper class in Jacksonville is more apathetic than the same segments of people in other metros, and as a result we are more a city that is like a conglomerate of separate gated communities and subdivisions than a unified city with a hub downtown and spokes leading to strong supportive communities. We also [coincidentally?] lack an identity.
I had to read this for summer reading back in high school. Once again irrelevant. I know where you are trying to go with this and it is simply not on point. Our metro is not the poorest metro in the country (we have had a higher mean personal income than every other FL city, Charlotte, Atlanta, Birmingham, and tons of other cities for a few years now believe it or not). There are a ton of rich people in this metro, and our metro is very "middle class." There is a ton of money held by people who have no personal connection to the metro, they are here to either store their money or retire. I think true leadership would be able to get some of these people on board with policies and projects. True leadership can rally any group of people to action on anything.
What I have noticed is that the only people who work/care about downtown and really the city as a whole are the grassroots people who live in the core area and the business leaders who run their business out of the area and live in Ortega, Avondale, or San Marco. There are some suburbanites who come in for events, but otherwise they really don't realize the potential, care about the potential, or understand how having a fully realized-potential downtown could benefit the city from a budget perspective, an economic perspective, and a cultural perspective. Part of that has to do with who relocates here and part of that has to do with a fairly dumb overall populace (the numbers prove it guys so sorry if that is offensive).
Charlotte's citizenry seems to only care about Uptown. Sure some people there will live 25 miles away, but they want to work, eat, and play in Uptown, and the political leadership/vision there is phenominal.
Jacksonville leaders (from the FTU to the mayor to biz leaders to us grassroots people) need to do a better job of explaining how subsidizing and providing incentives for downtown and urban areas in general is a lot less expensive from a tax perspective and a quality of life perspective than subsidizing and providing incentives for suburban or urban sprawl.
And I agree that some of the landlords in downtown are real idiots. Chew is being forced to move to the 5 Points area because due to its success it needs to expand, and the landlord does not want to provide realistic rates or allow Chew to expand in his building, so the idiot would rather see one of the most popular/profitable businesses in downtown leave his building for a completely different neighborhood. Chris Hionedes' son (I forget the name of his development group - responsible for the Ivy, and basically most of the bars/new restaurants downtown) sees great success. He is a young guy with a head on his shoulder, passion and vision, and he is able to open successful business after successful business in his buildings. He is the only one I can think of.
WOW, I don't know where your rational came from, but I have been here 21 years and I am still waiting for something, anything to happen downtown. You need to speak for yourself and not others when you say part of the problem is those that relocate here are fairly dumb about anything urban. Let's cut to the chase, Vision 2010 clearly states that the downtown area has retreated in the past few years. I don't know about you but when I am in Chicago, Boston, New York, San Diego and other cities, I am constantly reminded about the lack of anything even substantial that has happened to downtown since I have lived here. I love public transportation and love the fact I can fly into SEATAC, Logan or Midway and use public transportation to get into the city.
There are plenty of people like me in Jacksonville who love the urban life, but guess what, we can't do anything about the potential aspects of downtown. Maybe the real dumb people of Jacksonville are the ones buying into the pipe dream that new street pavers and reconditioned fountain will open peoples eyes to downtowns potential................NOT
Your comment that surburbanites don't really grasp whats it like to have a developed downtown is another misconception, in every progressive city in the US, public transportation brings these surburbanites to their downtowns for work and pleasure. My family can't afford to live in downtown Boston or Chicago, but we all take the public transportation in and love every minute of our ride knowing we are auto free and we will have plenty to see and do.
Just my two cents from someone who does not currently live or work downtown and who has wife that has to work on the south side because that is where the coporate growth is now.
Well JBtwinz, my point was that the native suburbanites here really DON'T understand and the transplants ditch that lifestyle to live the suburban lifestyle here, and they don't seem to care. I am pretty active with a lot of organizations and players in Jax, and they aren't comprised of very many people from the suburbs or many transplants. Also, like I said in another thread, there are realtors here who won't even show inner city neighborhoods like San Marco, Riverside, or Avondale, and insist on only showing St. Johns County, Baymeadows, ICW, or the Beach.
And you waiting isn't going to help. Write JTA, attend meetings, elect better City Councilmen (there's the biggest evidence of apathy on the part of the majority of the city), and talk to your city councilman. There are too many people who either don't want what I and others describe, don't realize what good an urban environment is because they haven't experienced it (many natives of Jax have really not traveled extensively or lived elsewhere), or they are just waiting. Get involved!! Your "waiting" is proof in the pudding.
Also, if you couldn't afford urban living in a larger city, our core is cheaper than those larger cities' suburbs and cuts down your transportation costs that you would incur here in Jax, so why not live in the core? Another proof.
And I have to add, that when it comes to funding various projects and lobbying to focus on various parts of the city, it is the core/downtown versus the rest of the city. I do agree with you that we have some leaders who go after pipe dreams that won't do anything, but this is where we the citizenry must engage them since they do not do a good job of engaging us. There have been significant changes of mindsets within city leaders in the last couple years, so maybe we'll see something happen, and Laura St is actually a very good project and will eventually connect to Springfield (one problem we face is a lack of connectivity). Friendship Fountain (and Laura St) were funded by TID funds (so taxpayers aren't paying a dime for them).
Well JBtwinz, my point was that the native suburbanites here really DON'T understand and the transplants ditch that lifestyle to live the suburban lifestyle here, and they don't seem to care. I am pretty active with a lot of organizations and players in Jax, and they aren't comprised of very many people from the suburbs or many transplants. Also, like I said in another thread, there are realtors here who won't even show inner city neighborhoods like San Marco, Riverside, or Avondale, and insist on only showing St. Johns County, Baymeadows, ICW, or the Beach.
And you waiting isn't going to help. Write JTA, attend meetings, elect better City Councilmen (there's the biggest evidence of apathy on the part of the majority of the city), and talk to your city councilman. There are too many people who either don't want what I and others describe, don't realize what good an urban environment is because they haven't experienced it (many natives of Jax have really not traveled extensively or lived elsewhere), or they are just waiting. Get involved!! Your "waiting" is proof in the pudding.
Also, if you couldn't afford urban living in a larger city, our core is cheaper than those larger cities' suburbs and cuts down your transportation costs that you would incur here in Jax, so why not live in the core? Another proof.
When we first arrived we looked into downtown, it was about the same time the Landing opened and my wife was working for Barnett downtown. It just did not feel right, luckly instinct proved correct. She is now part of the corporate flight out of downtown to the Southside. We will continue to wait for things to happen and continue to drive into downtown for our excursions. We get involved here locally on Amelia, although my wife was playing an active role in redevelopment (financial aspect) in Springfield before the crash came. A lot of money was getting ready to be turned loose in Springfield before all hell broke loose.
Also, if you couldn't afford urban living in a larger city, our core is cheaper than those larger cities' suburbs and cuts down your transportation costs that you would incur here in Jax, so why not live in the core? Another proof.
Actually we are a little to hard core urban dwellers who really would like to live in the heart of downtown rather than Springfield, Avondale or Riverside. If downtown had a little (maybe a lot) more to offer within a few blocks of walking we would be living downtown.
We have spent a lot of time living in some of the larger US city's for several months at a time and love the freedom it brings along with the cultural and ethnic diversity that goes along with it.
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