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How do people who have knowledge of coding and scripting languages, but no work experience with them get jobs that seek those skills? These days, I've applied for a couple that look for knowledge, only to end up being told they want someone with experience (then why not say 'x' # years of experience then?). As I've got nothing to lose, I've also applied to positions that look for low level of experience. I've heard of folks last decade who were able to get programming positions by studying it themselves. Has the landscape changed here?
How does one "bs" and get your foot into the door to an interview?
I'd imagine during the interview, hopefully they'll ask you technical questions so you can demonstrate your skills. I've heard of some interviewees instruct phone interviewers how to set up a Google Docs link so you won't have to describe over the phone what your code will look like. Have any of you been asked to "write" code over the phone? If in-person, that's more straightforward, as you can now view and write stuff down. Has it been necessary to get almost everything right, or do they just want to make sure you're not a completely clueless hack who's probably never touched a keyboard before?
Last edited by ackmondual; 06-16-2014 at 03:32 AM..
What I've found is that entry level means a minimum of five years of experience for coders. Most kids graduating from Comp Sci or CIS today have been developing web sites and just toying with making their own games for years. The expectation today is that someone fresh out of school will have already posted a project or two on some open source project, or have developed an Android app or two, or would have a few web sites built under their belts.
The only thing you can do is prove to these employers that coding is your passion. Get involved with volunteer activities where you can use the coding skills you've learned already. Build web sites for free. Develop Android or iOS apps for free. Even then, none of these volunteer activities will help as many employers today want that minimum of five years of paid experience for that first job out of school.
There do exist entry-level Software Engineering jobs, that don't require years of experience, but they're extremely competitive to land. You're going to be competing with CS grads who've held internships and started programming in high school. Luckily, there are jobs for those people who weren't good enough to get into Software Engineering. I have one. I basically do content management for $17/hr, through a staffing agency.
How do people who have knowledge of coding and scripting languages, but no work experience with them get jobs that seek those skills? These days, I've applied for a couple that look for knowledge, only to end up being told they want someone with experience (then why not say 'x' # years of experience then?). As I've got nothing to lose, I've also applied to positions that look for low level of experience. I've heard of folks last decade who were able to get programming positions by studying it themselves. Has the landscape changed here?
How does one "bs" and get your foot into the door to an interview?
I'd imagine during the interview, hopefully they'll ask you technical questions so you can demonstrate your skills. I've heard of some interviewees instruct phone interviewers how to set up a Google Docs link so you won't have to describe over the phone what your code will look like. Have any of you been asked to "write" code over the phone? If in-person, that's more straightforward, as you can now view and write stuff down. Has it been necessary to get almost everything right, or do they just want to make sure you're not a completely clueless hack who's probably never touched a keyboard before?
I've never been asked to do any coding over the phone. If it's a phone interview they usually give me "homework", a project to complete and send back, or ask basic theory questions ("What's the singleton design? What's the difference between abstract classes and interfaces? What is a closure? Explain namespaces to me. etc.") In office interviews I have been asked to explain code, explain theories, or work on a project in the office then explain what I did.
Do you have a college degree? If so, in what field? Most of the programmers who self-teach did so out of necessity, i.e. they were trained and employed in a different field and their company needed a programmer. My husband is a meteorologist and their programmer is self-taught, but was originally hired as a meteorologist and just learned programming as a necessity to help the company, first writing Excel macros then eventually Python scripts.
If you have a degree in Computer Science, then getting a programming job becomes easier. Focus on entry level jobs. Work your college's networking. Places like Aftercollege and Experience are great for entry level positions, and Monster and SnagAJob tend to be decent as well. Put a resume up on Dice and make a LinkedIn profile. These are two places where tech companies look heavily.
Where are you looking? If you are in a big metropolitan area (Chicago, Austin, Dallas, LA, New York, Seattle, etc.) hit up recruiters and headhunters. They know the companies in the area, know who's hiring, and know how to advertise you. I actually just finished getting a mid-level programming job, and can recommend some recruiters depending on where you live.
Without any college degree, it becomes much, much harder. At that point it basically becomes a combination of who you know and luck to get your foot in the door. Work on open source projects, Git-Hub is a great place, or try to get some freelance work on elance, or even Craigslist.
I do have a CS degree. Studied C, C++, Java, and Perl extensively then. I likely won't be gunning for a software engineer position, as competition for those is fierce. And even then, I've met and talked with some "elite" software engineers (e.g. one has a decade of C++ experience, another one can claim he can look at any problem related to software programming and be able to solve it in due time) who claim they constantly get lowballed for positions, even though they're making a good living now.
The code knowledge is so I can also do work in back end testing, scripting, and automated testing. As such, I've been more focused on practical knowledge, so stuff like... say, how would I open files in C++, or if they showed me sample code, I'd at least be able to point out all compiler errors, this logic won't work, this is a potential crash since the variable was never initialized, etc.
However, if I interview with a more technical company (like Amazon or Google), I will have to really brush up on design patterns, sorting efficiencies, etc.
I do have a CS degree. Studied C, C++, Java, and Perl extensively then. I likely won't be gunning for a software engineer position, as competition for those is fierce. And even then, I've met and talked with some "elite" software engineers (e.g. one has a decade of C++ experience, another one can claim he can look at any problem related to software programming and be able to solve it in due time) who claim they constantly get lowballed for positions, even though they're making a good living now.
The code knowledge is so I can also do work in back end testing, scripting, and automated testing. As such, I've been more focused on practical knowledge, so stuff like... say, how would I open files in C++, or if they showed me sample code, I'd at least be able to point out all compiler errors, this logic won't work, this is a potential crash since the variable was never initialized, etc.
However, if I interview with a more technical company (like Amazon or Google), I will have to really brush up on design patterns, sorting efficiencies, etc.
When did you get your CS degree?
Here's the problem: Even if you "brush up" on all the classic CS concepts and the syntax of a language you worked with during college, if you've been out of college for a while and haven't been working with those languages professionally, then your resume won't get considered. The only real way around the "You can't get the job w/out experience and you can't get experience w/out the job" Catch-22 is getting software-related internships during college, and/or relevant coursework.
I do have a CS degree. Studied C, C++, Java, and Perl extensively then. I likely won't be gunning for a software engineer position, as competition for those is fierce. And even then, I've met and talked with some "elite" software engineers (e.g. one has a decade of C++ experience, another one can claim he can look at any problem related to software programming and be able to solve it in due time) who claim they constantly get lowballed for positions, even though they're making a good living now.
The code knowledge is so I can also do work in back end testing, scripting, and automated testing. As such, I've been more focused on practical knowledge, so stuff like... say, how would I open files in C++, or if they showed me sample code, I'd at least be able to point out all compiler errors, this logic won't work, this is a potential crash since the variable was never initialized, etc.
However, if I interview with a more technical company (like Amazon or Google), I will have to really brush up on design patterns, sorting efficiencies, etc.
My suggestion would be to look for entry level positions with small to medium companies. Web development is strong right now, leverage your Java experience to talk about the similarities between all OOP languages. You can probably pick up PHP pretty quick with a solid understanding of Java. You can also do the PHP and jQuery courses on Codecademy. C and Java also puts you in a good position for mobile development since Android uses modified Java and iOS uses modified C#.
Dice and LinkedIn are your friends. I posted a resume and people started contacting me pretty quickly.
Don't get too hung up on theory. For example, at a recent interview I was asked the following question:
"How do you think jQuery implemented the id selector functionality, and would it be better to use the id selector or the class selector?"
I use jQuery pretty regularly, but I haven't the slightest idea how it works behind the scenes, so the answer I gave was: "Based on my knowledge, I would personally have to loop over the entire DOM, looking for a particular id. Since ids are unique, once I found the element I was looking for I would break out of the loop. However, I don't think going through the entire DOM is an ideal solution as it isn't scalable, and I would hope the creators of jQuery had a better method. As for id versus class, I would prefer to use the id whenever possible since it is unique. With a class search you would have to search the entire DOM to find all occurrences."
Right now, OOP is very big, so it wouldn't hurt to touch up on some terms. In my recent interview experiences I was asked a few questions like:
Difference in abstract and interface
What is the Singleton design
What is a closure
What is a namespace
When would you use Object Oriented code over procedural code
Define static
What is short circuiting in a boolean expression
What is the difference between Agile and Waterfall
Do you prefer Git or SVN
One piece of advice, if you are asked any "Do you prefer x or y" don't answer. You can say something like "I am more familiar with x, but I am interested in learning y so I can determine when best to use one over the other." Even if you have a preference, you want to express a willingness to use the right tool for the job. If you say you love Git, and the company uses SVN, they might think you aren't a good fit or that you would fight doing things their way. Always indicate that both are valid options and the choice would depend on the project. Even better if you can articulate when each would be better.
So you already know the solution, but instead you'd rather lie about your skills and BS your way through the interview. Nice.
Who's lying? If you're accusing me of that, then that certainly is not the case. I've been studying a couple of languages and performing exercises. What good is having the skills and knowledge if it doesn't get you an interview? And yes, I said the means is to get the interview. Once in the interview, I'll answer any questions about such technical skills and even demonstrate them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by const_iterator
When did you get your CS degree?
Here's the problem: Even if you "brush up" on all the classic CS concepts and the syntax of a language you worked with during college, if you've been out of college for a while and haven't been working with those languages professionally, then your resume won't get considered. The only real way around the "You can't get the job w/out experience and you can't get experience w/out the job" Catch-22 is getting software-related internships during college, and/or relevant coursework.
Last decade. I did do a semi-software development internship back then. Sad thing is, as posted on this thread and others, some of these places really do want a newly minted CS grad to have 3 to 5 years for these "entry level" positions.
Last edited by ackmondual; 06-16-2014 at 04:04 PM..
Who's lying? If you're accusing me of that, then that certainly is not the case. I've been studying a couple of languages and performing exercises. What good is having the skills and knowledge if it doesn't get you an interview?
Last decade. I did do a semi-software development internship back then. Sad thing is, as posted on this thread and others, some of these places really do want a newly minted CS grad to have 3 to 5 years for these "entry level" positions.
I don't think they expect the CS grad to have 3-5 years of full time work experience, but typically they do want to see an internship or two as well as being able to showcase or at least explain some projects that you've worked on.
I actually work predominatly with VB. I got my start messing around making games(BlackJack level stuff) and expanded to automating stuff for some online games. From there I expanded into writing Excel Macros. That was all stuff done outside of a job, but was still stuff I could list on my resume to show I had the knowledge. I then also got an internship where the application was run using VB in the background.
Experience doesn't always have to mean that you had a job for 3 years as a programmer. You mostly need to show that you know the basics and how to apply them to solve most problems. For entry level jobs, they want someone who can learn more than anything.
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). As I've got nothing to lose, I've also applied to positions that look for low level of experience. I've heard of folks last decade who were able to get programming positions by studying it themselves. Has the landscape changed here?
