Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I get the impression that what bothers Jewish people about the so-called "messianic Jews" or "Jews For Jesus" is that once they have converted to another religion - Christianity! - they are still trying to maintain they are authentically Jewish ... hmmmm
If you follow Jesus now wouldn't be more honest and direct to just declare yourself a Christian?
I guess it's like being an American. Even if you move to another country - say you decide to retire to Costa Rica - you are still an American, assuming you hold onto your American Passport; even if you're living in Costa Rica, speaking Spanish, paying local taxes, etc. On the other hand, if you renounce your American citizenship, give up the passport, legally become a citizen of Costa Rica, get one of their passports ... who knows? even serve in the Costa Rican military or get elected to political office over there ... you are now no longer an American. This is just a thought. Am I way off base?
I think it depends. The majority of so called "Messianics" are in fact Gentiles who feel like holding on to some Jewish tradition that they feel is lost from modern day Christianity. But they are not Jews, they are Gentile Christians. This branch also stemmed from Southern Baptists as an apparent means to try and convert Jews. I don't support that type of Messianic.
An authentic Messianic Jew is one who is a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and a follower of the Messiah. The Apostles were the first Messianic Jews. Christianity didn't in essence exist yet. The Apostles were all practicing followers of Judaism, some, like Paul were Pharisees. But they claim to have witnessed the teachings and miracles of Jesus, and became "followers of the annointed one", which is "Christian" in Greek/Latin.
Yes most mainstream Jews reject Messianic due to its association with trying to convert Jews to Christianity and they view it as a heresy and betrayal, but one doesn't cease becoming a Jew based on their belief system.
And, while not accepted by Jews, Romans 11 in the Bible states that most Jews were specifically cut off to allow the Gentiles to gain salvation, and God will later return to finish his plan with the Jews. Indicating God already prophesized that most Jews would reject the Jewish followers of the Messiah and declare them apostate.
It's a very difficult road to be Messianic because you're rejected by Jews, and often ignored or rejected by Christians. I don't call myself Christian because I frankly hate the baggage that's associated with it, and particularly in the US, I despise the hypocracy and embarassment that Fundamentalists and Conservatives have brought to Christianity. I also reject a lot of Christian theology like eternal Hell, an evil Satan, Biblical inerrancy, sola scriptura, etc.
I think it depends. The majority of so called "Messianics" are in fact Gentiles who feel like holding on to some Jewish tradition that they feel is lost from modern day Christianity. But they are not Jews, they are Gentile Christians. This branch also stemmed from Southern Baptists as an apparent means to try and convert Jews. I don't support that type of Messianic.
An authentic Messianic Jew is one who is a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and a follower of the Messiah. The Apostles were the first Messianic Jews. Christianity didn't in essence exist yet. The Apostles were all practicing followers of Judaism, some, like Paul were Pharisees. But they claim to have witnessed the teachings and miracles of Jesus, and became "followers of the annointed one", which is "Christian" in Greek/Latin.
Yes most mainstream Jews reject Messianic due to its association with trying to convert Jews to Christianity and they view it as a heresy and betrayal, but one doesn't cease becoming a Jew based on their belief system.
And, while not accepted by Jews, Romans 11 in the Bible states that most Jews were specifically cut off to allow the Gentiles to gain salvation, and God will later return to finish his plan with the Jews. Indicating God already prophesized that most Jews would reject the Jewish followers of the Messiah and declare them apostate.
It's a very difficult road to be Messianic because you're rejected by Jews, and often ignored or rejected by Christians. I don't call myself Christian because I frankly hate the baggage that's associated with it, and particularly in the US, I despise the hypocracy and embarassment that Fundamentalists and Conservatives have brought to Christianity. I also reject a lot of Christian theology like eternal Hell, an evil Satan, Biblical inerrancy, sola scriptura, etc.
I appreciate your honesty and find hearing your perspective interesting. Yes, you are in the middle theologically speaking. But that's ok. I sometimes wonder how Moses, Elijah, or John the Baptist would treated today, even by his own people.
If her great grandmother is Jewish, that means her grandmother is, which means her mother is.
Stop interjecting your obnoxious anti-Messianic opinion into this discussion. I don't give a crap what you or other mainstream Jews believe about the issue. Drop it.
- sorry but NO, you will NOT re-define a 5000 year old religion to include what YOU WANT simple because you feel guilty for converting. Messianic = Christianity... It is that simple. There are ONLY two ways to become Jewish, 1 be born from a JEWISH mother who was a praciticing jewish person at the time of birth, or 2. Convert.
And you are wrong. If a Jewish woman converts to Christianity, she is still Jewish, as would be her children. Her religion is irrelevant. Matrilineal descent does not end based on one's belief system.
- Absolutly WRONG If the mother converts before childbirth then thats the END OF THE LINE. (otherwise you would have about 1/2 billion "jews") sorry but no, you convert out of judiasm then you are no longer part of the jewish religion. Beliving in jesus means you are not jewish.
It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship.
- Learn the difference between being born a jew and being part of the Jewish religion, being a jew is something you are born in. Its a birth right. You dont stop being a JEW because you convert, where you get confused is that you think you are still in the JEWISH RELIGION. Any person who belives in jesus or mohammad or the dali-lama or buddha or bahai, etc (as dieties or prophets or whatever) is no longer in the JEWISH RELIGION in anyway. Once you convert the line ends with you. The children do NOT become jews.
It works the other way too, as you can convert and become Jewish (and yes a JEW) and the children of that convert will be considered a JEW.
Yes you are "messianic" (christian) and you were born a jew, but that's where it ends. You belive in christianity now.
- sorry but NO, you will NOT re-define a 5000 year old religion to include what YOU WANT. Messianic = Christianity... It is that simple. There are ONLY two ways to become Jewish, 1. be born from a JEWISH mother who was a praciticing jewish person at the time of birth, or 2. Convert.
- If the mother converts before childbirth then thats the END OF THE LINE. (otherwise you would have about 1/2 billion "jews") sorry but no, you convert out of judiasm then you are no longer part of the jewish religion. Beliving in jesus means you are not jewish.
- Learn the difference between being born a jew and being part of the Jewish religion, being a jew is something you are born in. Its a birth right. You dont stop being a JEW because you convert, where you get confused is that you think you are still in the JEWISH RELIGION. Any person who belives in jesus or mohammad or the dali-lama or buddha or bahai, etc (as dieties or prophets or whatever) is no longer in the JEWISH RELIGION in anyway. Once you convert the line ends with you. The children do NOT become jews.
It works the other way too, as you can convert and become Jewish (and yes a JEW) and the children of that convert will be considered a JEW.
Yes you are "messianic" (christian) and you were born a jew, but that's where it ends. You belive in christianity now.
[color=#ff0000]- sorry but NO, you will NOT re-define a 5000 year old religion ....
Yes you are "messianic" (christian) and you were born a jew, but that's where it ends. You belive in christianity now.
Let me ask you this. If the Messiah that you are waiting for came, would you no longer be a Jew in every sense of the word you consider yourself one today? Would you then be in an entirely new religion? I think the answer is obvious = No.
Let's be honest, all your opinions/disdain toward J4J or Messianic Jews really boils down to only one thing -> your rejection of Jesus as Messiah. Everything changes based on the way you answer that one question, as does your world view of 5000 years of history.
We can agree to disagree on this one important point. Those debates have gone on for 1000s of years and will continue most likely beyond our lives. But to be intellectually honest, you have to at least try to understand things from another perspective besides your own. It is simply a different way of looking at Jewish history than you do. You may not agree with it, but for the Jew who does accept Jesus as Messiah, its one continuation of the same religion from before Adam was created until now - the same God of Israel. It is the fulfillment of their faith, not something other than which starts something non-related to what the Jewish people did for 1000s of years prior. The two are interconnected in every way.
Derek
Last edited by MtnSurfer; 07-30-2011 at 01:58 PM..
You may not agree with it, but for the Jew who does accept Jesus as Messiah, its one continuation of the same religion from before Adam was created until now - the same God of Israel. It is the fulfillment of their faith, not something other than which starts something non-related to what the Jewish people did for 1000s of years prior. The two are interconnected in every way.
Derek
Thank you for sharing your views and I can see some of the logic in your point of view; if in fact Christians and Jews lived in the kind of mutual respect and recognition of each other in the way that that, say, Hindus and Sikhs or Buddhists and Shintoists have peacefully co-existed.
It seems to me that you have failed to acknowledge the 2,000 year history of appalling and heartbreaking anti-semitism on the part of Christians against the Jews throughout Europe and the Levant. A good place to start is the acclaimed and excellent book "Constantine's Sword" by the former Roman Catholic priest James Carroll.
This history of the oppression, persecution, destruction, genocide, and degradation of the Jewish people began in the very early years of Christianity itself - during the times of the Roman Empire. Is it any wonder that many Jews to this day still feel the hurt, distrust, anguish and even anger against the religion that persecuted them so?
Let me ask you this. If the Messiah that you are waiting for came, would you no longer be a Jew in every sense of the word you consider yourself one today? Would you then be in an entirely new religion? I think the answer is obvious = No.
Let's be honest, all your opinions/disdain toward J4J or Messianic Jews really boils down to only one thing -> your rejection of Jesus as Messiah. Everything changes based on the way you answer that one question, as does your world view of 5000 years of history.
We can agree to disagree on this one important point. Those debates have gone on for 1000s of years and will continue most likely beyond our lives. But to be intellectually honest, you have to at least try to understand things from another perspective besides your own. It is simply a different way of looking at Jewish history than you do. You may not agree with it, but for the Jew who does accept Jesus as Messiah, its one continuation of the same religion from before Adam was created until now - the same God of Israel. It is the fulfillment of their faith, not something other than which starts something non-related to what the Jewish people did for 1000s of years prior. The two are interconnected in every way.
Derek
Accepting Jesus as messiah isn't 'simply a different way of looking at Jewish history.' It's a reputiation of Jewish history.
This history of the oppression, persecution, destruction, genocide, and degradation of the Jewish people began in the very early years of Christianity itself - during the times of the Roman Empire. Is it any wonder that many Jews to this day still feel the hurt, distrust, anguish and even anger against the religion that persecuted them so?
This is extremely sad and unfortunate, but it need not continue.
many of us christians not only admire and respect the Jews because w/o them we wouldn't know God, but we also take to heart that God blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who curse Israel
Let me ask you this. If the Messiah that you are waiting for came, would you no longer be a Jew in every sense of the word you consider yourself one today? Would you then be in an entirely new religion? I think the answer is obvious = No.
Let's be honest, all your opinions/disdain toward J4J or Messianic Jews really boils down to only one thing -> your rejection of Jesus as Messiah. Everything changes based on the way you answer that one question, as does your world view of 5000 years of history.
We can agree to disagree on this one important point. Those debates have gone on for 1000s of years and will continue most likely beyond our lives. But to be intellectually honest, you have to at least try to understand things from another perspective besides your own. It is simply a different way of looking at Jewish history than you do. You may not agree with it, but for the Jew who does accept Jesus as Messiah, its one continuation of the same religion from before Adam was created until now - the same God of Israel. It is the fulfillment of their faith, not something other than which starts something non-related to what the Jewish people did for 1000s of years prior. The two are interconnected in every way.
Derek
I'm sorry but its completly different (as other posters have said), and its not Jewish in anyway. If a person converts to the jesus idea, then good for them and have at it. But dont lie and claim that you are still in the Jewish religion. That person is NOT.
I'm sorry but its completly different (as other posters have said), and its not Jewish in anyway. If a person converts to the jesus idea, then good for them and have at it. But dont lie and claim that you are still in the Jewish religion. That person is NOT.
Ok, I acknowlege you are entitled to your opinion and disagree regarding the Jewish religion. But can you attempt just a moment to see this from another's perspective. Can you answer the original question in all honesty? If the Messiah that you are waiting for came, would you no longer be a Jew in every sense of the word you consider yourself one today? Because that is the question which the Jew who accepts Jesus as Messiah ask's him/herself, and doesn't even give a second thought. The answer is an emphatic yes. The past, the present and the future are inseparable.
Derek
Last edited by MtnSurfer; 07-30-2011 at 08:12 PM..
Accepting Jesus as messiah isn't 'simply a different way of looking at Jewish history.' It's a reputiation of Jewish history.
Not for the Jew who has accepted Jesus as Messiah, its rather the opposite. It is the fullfillment of Jewish history. And of course that is a huge paradigm shift in thought.
Derek
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
