Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Not an accurate analogy, because the ability to speak English at a reasonably fluent level is needed in order to converse and communicate effectively with one another in a "diverse" society.
...
So in order for a multi-racial, "diverse" society to function, I feel we need to "bond" with on another on at least the superficial level of sharing the same, common language - at least in public. This will facilitate integration on various levels, and minimize that gut reaction of "they're not of my tribe because not only do they look different, but they don't even speak a language I understand."
Any government programs that does not facilitate or force an immigrant to learn english, not only hinders their ability to integrate successfully, but may also contributes to social conflict.
We had to destroy the village in order to save it
With the best of intentions, but this is a bad argument. The test of US citizens, & their bond (shared values) was an agreement or @ least tacit consent to the principles underlying the Declaration of Independence & the US Constitution. It is not a question of mere outward compliance, the kind of straitjacket doctrine & rigid orthodoxy of practice that has plagued orthodox Islam for the last few centuries, ever since they cut off theological speculation.
No, the British colonies & then the fledgling US have always drawn in dissenters & non-standard thinkers in religion, government, domestic institutions & etc. That has been one of our strengths - we attract people who probably don't fit in in much more structured societies. & we give them space (sometimes physical, lately more often social) in which to attempt to flourish & prove their beliefs, or fail & try again. Sometimes people fail & fail & fail - that's part of the price we pay for a relatively open society. Other times, people succeed brilliantly, & they individually & the society @ large reap rewards - in money, fame, progress, labor-saving devices or processes or what-have-you.
This uniformity argument is the same mistake that Nazi Germany & Imperial Japan made in the 1930s & 1940s - they thought that because we (the US) didn't dress up in pretty uniforms & march about in formation singing the praises of the race & government, that we'd fold @ the first stiff breeze. "A nation of shopkeepers" was Nazi scorn for the UK. We & our Allies laid those arguments to rest, & kicked a little dirt over their avatars for form's sake, in 1945. Right before we (the West) went on to lead the Western World for the next 70+ years. It's a fair record.
Back @ the language issue - yes, the state should facilitate learning & improving English fluency & literacy - for everybody who lives in the state, immigrant or not (that's the point of Adult Basic Education - we still have a fair number of US-born citizens who can't or only barely can read/write. They need help too - for their sake & the sake of the polity.) No, we shouldn't even try to force people to learn English. People can see where their advantage lies - if they don't understand that good/better English is desirable, if only for the economic opportunities it offers - then there's no point in trying to beat a dead horse. It's a waste of energy & resources. Better to move on to the next item on the agenda, because there's no ethical way to force the desired outcome without defeating the purpose of the exercise. Yah, we can brainwash people - the techniques are understood. But we're interested in inculcating the values of the US - which preclude torturing or waterboarding someone to instill the desire to learn English, for instance.
Last edited by southwest88; 11-03-2016 at 09:45 AM..
Reason: add
In the context of what I've written, I certainly do not think it is accurate to equate Nazi ideology to anything I've stated. That's quite a stretch.
OK, let's not force anyone to learn English. Forcing anyone to do anything is almost never an effective way of achieving any long-term goals anyways. But I do not think the government should create policies that acts as an enabler for people to NOT learn the language either. People will do what they want to do. And there will always be consequences to any action.
Any examples of currently stable, 'successful' countries where immigrants (not expats) do not learn the host country's language? If so, what is the percentage of said immigrants to total native population, what is the overall economic health and prosperity of said country, and what is the overall quality of life (social integration vs. strife)? This is not a rhetorical question. I am asking if this is possible for the US to achieve.
In the context of what I've written, I certainly do not think it is accurate to equate Nazi ideology to anything I've stated. That's quite a stretch.
OK, let's not force anyone to learn English. Forcing anyone to do anything is almost never an effective way of achieving any long-term goals anyways. But I do not think the government should create policies that acts as an enabler for people to NOT learn the language either. People will do what they want to do. And there will always be consequences to any action.
Any examples of currently stable, 'successful' countries where immigrants (not expats) do not learn the host country's language? If so, what is the percentage of said immigrants to total native population, what is the overall economic health and prosperity of said country, and what is the overall quality of life (social integration vs. strife)? This is not a rhetorical question. I am asking if this is possible for the US to achieve.
Nah, the observation was that the preoccupation with surface qualities was the same mistake that the Nazis & IJ made in regard to judging the military capabilities of the UK & the US: surface is surface, basically Show Biz. & we (the US) don't run on Show Biz, nor does anyone, really. Nazi ideology is something entirely different & quite venomous. I didn't go there.
But the moment you talk about forcing people to do whatever, you invite the comparison. Only dictatorships or totalitarian polities have that kind of power over individuals, without sanction of legislative & judicial branches of government.
Linguistic & cultural assimilation/acculturation is a long process. In the US, it's typically three or four generations, & sometimes longer, & can even be permanent - the Old Amish, the Mormon Church, for example. In the long run, once there are children born & raised in the US, I think the trend to acculturation accelerates - people who are in their 60s or older when they get to the US, may never learn enough English to be fluent - & I believe there's a possible waiver of the language requirement for seniors for US citizenship, for this reason.
Even the Irish - most of whom spoke some English, & certainly looked Caucasian enough - had to adjust to US society & organize themselves, in order to prosper here. (& even then, JFK was the first successful R. Catholic presidential candidate, after decades of trying.)
So - acculturation to US society is a process that takes decades. In the US, it was easier for immigrants when we were more of a rural & early manufacturing economy - jobs weren't as tied to diplomas & training, & constant study to keep up with the work. The US successfully integrated lots of immigrants from the 1840s on, & peaked probably in the 1920s. Then the Crash, WWII - a string of tragedies for the World. I think those immigrants largely applied themselves, & worked & learned English as best they could, as quickly as they could. If we did it before, with less understanding of the processes involved, we should be able to do it again, with much better understanding of the processes & even the incoming nationalities.
It's a question of political will.
Last edited by southwest88; 11-03-2016 at 10:55 AM..
Reason: add
Not an accurate analogy, because the ability to speak English at a reasonably fluent level is needed in order to converse and communicate effectively with one another in a "diverse" society.
America is secular in its separation of church and state, so whether the religion one practices differs from another has minimal impact on other in the general community, unless it is a religion that seeks to forcibly push its dogma and practices onto others.
And while your theory of freedom from a common language (here, English) may sound somewhat reasonable in theory, it is impractical in today's real world.
I believe humans have evolved to seek identity to some group/level of social organization, whether it be at the most basic level from one's family, to one's community, to nationality, to race. This need to seek security and comfort in some type of tribe was probably needed for protection and cooperation in hunting and gathering for one's sustenance. It does not disappear overnight.
So in order for a multi-racial, "diverse" society to function, I feel we need to "bond" with on another on at least the superficial level of sharing the same, common language - at least in public. This will facilitate integration on various levels, and minimize that gut reaction of "they're not of my tribe because not only do they look different, but they don't even speak a language I understand."
Any government programs that does not facilitate or force an immigrant to learn english, not only hinders their ability to integrate successfully, but may also contributes to social conflict.
I repped this post.
I fully agree. Not politically correct but a painful truth.
I'm all for immigrants coming to our country and having a better life but BOTH immigrants legal or illegal should be REQUIRED to take english classes(their plenty of people who can volunteer). This is getting out of hand, i can't even communicate with them and they expect me to what speak spanish?or what ever language?
This is america it's a majority english speaking country if i went to japan i would learn japanese.
This is hilarious, the OP, born & raised here presumably - "our country" - can't even put together 2-3 correct English sentences & is lecturing immigrants how they should be fluent in a new country's language.
i can't even communicate with them and they expect me to what speak spanish?or what ever language?
I hope you can learn English as well Tyrone. Perhaps this is just a silly troll bait thing?
Now I'm going over to the thread where Chris Christie is lecturing people to eat sensibly & exercise more.
I grew up in the Detroit area in the 60's. There were lots of people who still spoke Polish, with no interest for English speaking, and no one cared a bit about it. Today's push is racist attitudes, plain and simple.
I grew up in the Detroit area in the 60's. There were lots of people who still spoke Polish, with no interest for English speaking, and no one cared a bit about it. Today's push is racist attitudes, plain and simple.
While I believe this may play a role consciously or subconsciously in some cases (especially for immigrants of color in the US today), I think in others, it is more of a "relatability" factor in the context of the wider tribe mentality I mentioned. And it is not always white vs. people of color, either. I believe this applies to any other country and immigrants.
But regardless, I believe that it aids more than it hinders an immigrant's ability to integrate effectively and improve their financial situation, if they are encouraged to learn English as soon as possible. That is, if integration is their goal and desire.
I grew up in the Detroit area in the 60's. There were lots of people who still spoke Polish, with no interest for English speaking, and no one cared a bit about it. Today's push is racist attitudes, plain and simple.
I'm not racist in the least. I don't care what language a person speaks and enjoy hearing them speak their native tongue. What I don't like, is seeing the USA bend over backwards to accommodate them at our expense and inconvenience.
Hmmm, I don't remember in the 60's ever having to push/dial 1 for Polish. That tells me THEY found a way to fit in, good for them.
I'm not racist in the least. I don't care what language a person speaks and enjoy hearing them speak their native tongue. What I don't like, is seeing the USA bend over backwards to accommodate them at our expense and inconvenience.
Hmmm, I don't remember in the 60's ever having to push/dial 1 for Polish. That tells me THEY found a way to fit in, good for them.
EXACTLY! It seems like they want us to speak their language.
Not an accurate analogy, because the ability to speak English at a reasonably fluent level is needed in order to converse and communicate effectively with one another in a "diverse" society.
America is secular in its separation of church and state, so whether the religion one practices differs from another has minimal impact on other in the general community, unless it is a religion that seeks to forcibly push its dogma and practices onto others.
And while your theory of freedom from a common language (here, English) may sound somewhat reasonable in theory, it is impractical in today's real world.
I believe humans have evolved to seek identity to some group/level of social organization, whether it be at the most basic level from one's family, to one's community, to nationality, to race. This need to seek security and comfort in some type of tribe was probably needed for protection and cooperation in hunting and gathering for one's sustenance. It does not disappear overnight.
So in order for a multi-racial, "diverse" society to function, I feel we need to "bond" with on another on at least the superficial level of sharing the same, common language - at least in public. This will facilitate integration on various levels, and minimize that gut reaction of "they're not of my tribe because not only do they look different, but they don't even speak a language I understand."
Any government programs that does not facilitate or force an immigrant to learn english, not only hinders their ability to integrate successfully, but may also contributes to social conflict.
I couldn't agree more.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It's the resort to force
That tells me THEY found a way to fit in, good for them.
