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[ETA: This is far and away the longest post I've ever written. Feel free to skip over it! Or if you're feeling brave and adventurous...go ahead and read, but you might want to go grab a cup of coffe and take a pee first.]
Oh whoah whoa...back up the truck... I mean I can't stand racism. Let me just say that, although it doesn't matter one way or another--people usually say "I'm not this" or "I'm not that" just to make themselves feel better; it doesn't actually help the person in question.
Anyway, that aside...on the subject of "nobody" saying slavery was wrong: EVERYBODY says slavery is wrong. That's people in general, though. So I'm assuming the desire would be to see it done in a public context? Like someone in public office? Or...how would it be good for this to be said?
Honest question because those posts about apologies brought up two things for me:
1. It would be so weird for me to go around apologizing to blacks for slavery when three-quarters of my family came over here starving from Poland, and the other quarter lived in Connecticut. So that just kind of upsets me--seeing all whites grouped together as we're all a bunch of people whose families had things handed to them, and who definitely all owned slaves. Trust me when I tell you that at no time in history did any large percentage of the American population own slaves! (As a percentage of the white U.S. population as a whole.) As throughout history, during the pre-Civil War era, the vast majority of people, yes, including whites, were very, very, very poor. Like I said, I seriously dislike racism...and one thing I seem to see over and over again is that it's not considered racism if it's whites who are being grouped together. That may seem a ridiculous point again, in the context of the belief that whites have it very easy, that we've never been segregated, etc. and if I were black, I might feel that way too. But just as we're getting an inside peek at the black world, this is an inside secret of the white world: it really isn't as easy as you think. Please trust me on this one. Nowhere near as easy. I've honestly never, and I mean ever had anything handed to me. Certainly not from the government! Not even when I was a 19-year-old single mother making $4.75 an hour...I didn't qualify...so I just worked and worked and worked...I mean that's what you do.
But that brings up another point...Part 2 to Part 1... Okay. Yes, whites have definitely been segregated, in writing, throughout U.S. history. Take "No Irish need apply" as one simple example, only because everybody knows about it. Other non-blacks have also been kept out of buildings, homes, away from jobs, have been beaten, etc.--certain Asian groups were cited above. Not saying that to belittle the black experience in America, which is pretty reprehensible, and not to say "What are you complaining about? We all get it one way or another," but rather just to make you realize that you're not alone. I think sometimes blacks feel very very alone. Very cut off from the rest of society, or only "allowed" to a certain extent--that Glass Ceiling mentioned above. That's pretty awful too.
Okay, that's enough from that angle. Here's the second thing these posts made me think of:
2. I actually DID apologize to a black person once, LOL. Yes...I AM that dork. You know...everybody probably thinks, "What dork on earth would walk up and shake a black person's hand and say they're sorry?" Well...that would be me. It was my best friend in high school, actually. My best friend was male (that was considered the weird part by everybody) and black (nobody batted an eye; as I've said before but so many people argue with, there are definitely other parts of the country that are far less racist). Anyway, my friend, C, somehow got around to talking about slavery. I don't know how because he was a science geek and usually preferred to talk physics. Well...in the midst of our slavery conversation, I said, thinking I was being sooooooo progressive (oh GOD this is embarrassing to admit), "C, I know my family never owned slaves. But talk like this makes me really dislike my own kind. I'm so ashamed. On behalf of whites, I'm sorry."
Well...C was SO P*SSED at me for that. That was only one of two times he ever actually got angry at me. He was disgusted, actually. First he went off on how even though his far ancestors might have been slaves, HIS family had been here a WHOLE LOT LONGER than mine (he really ground that one in...he was SERIOUSLY upset with me). He then went on to say that white pity is pitiful in itself. I have never been so hurt in all my life. It almost broke up our friendship.
I just have to picture walking down the street today and saying to some African-American man or woman, "On behalf of white people, I apologize." Would that not be the most disgustingly condescending thing you've ever heard? So I'm curious to know...what form of apology would people be looking for? And would it be on behalf of all Americans? Or just families that had owned slaves and that had not been involved in the Civil War to fight against slavery?
Okay...just wanted to get that out. This has to be the longest post I've ever written in my life. It's kind of painful to admit these things and it makes me feel really ashamed. But I thought you all should know...it's probably not as easy an answer as every white--even the entirely non-culpable ones, which actually is most of us (rich plantation owners were nationwide a severe minority numbers-wise) are--to just start saying we're sorry. Now...if you're talking about reparations by giving land, etc., that's different. I'm not sure how that would all go down. So if I'm off-base about the apologies thing and it is a desire for reparations in land or money, I apologize.
In our own lame little way, whites have actually attempted reparations. Especially in education. I don't know if maybe you just don't feel this stacks up, or covers the extent of the damage done. That's entirely possible because reparations never really fit the crime. They just don't, which is truly sad. For instance...a lot has been said about all this marvelous land Indigenous Americans were "just handed". OMG...do you know how LITTLE land these people received compared to what they'd previously owned? The ones who weren't left dead from warfare or smallpox, that is. You need to see an Indian reservation to truly get a sense of what was "given" to these people.
So anyway...what I was saying there is that I don't know if people just aren't recalling college funds, etc. or whether it's that it's too small an amount for the damage inflicted on blacks. I mean I really don't know because it's not me. The only people I can be pissed at is the Cossacks. I think I'm gonna have a tough time getting anything out of them.........
To all those who base their views of black people on a few bad situations:
STOP JUDGING US. Do you really have such limited interactions with black people that you have to judge the whole black race on a few people?
As for this, yes, I agree. But then my ONLY experiences with blacks have been positive. (Except the apology I wrote about above and my friend almost dumping me over it.) Maybe I'm just weird? Lucky? Open-minded? No idea...anyway...I agree with this statement.
Being Asian, I've felt discrimination, maybe not at your level. I've read your last 2 posts and wanted to tell you about my family history.
I grew up Socal since I was 3. i identify myself as an American but had a chance to go to my native country as an exchange student in college. I met my relatives there and inquired about my family history. They had this hardcover book, sized like a yellow pages. I found it to be impressive and neat that they could trace my family tree back 1000 yrs. I even saw my name listed even though no one there really knew me as I grew up in the US. For some reason, I didn't think too much otherwise. maybe I'd think similar to you if I was in your shoes and had no answer to my heritage.
As for the glass ceiling, I've felt that too but again, I don't give it much thought. To me, there are as many reasons for success as there is for failure. I realize people will judge me for whatever reasons: how I appear, how I sound over the phone for people whom I'll never see face to face and not know what race I am, or someone I just glimpse walking past. I don't want or expect an apology from those people who've done me wrong in the past, there's too many other things to think about accomplishing in the future. Living in LA has given me a thick skin to worry about this. Theres way too many different types of persons to worry about who'll treat me unfairly. I like to think there are those who look past this and they are those who can get along with anybody and will get ahead. I would like to associate with them. And if you can't get along, you'll likely not get ahead.
I have no idea why I felt compelled to post a response in this thread.
Maybe it's because I'm black and a native Angeleno -- and just so happened to stumble across this message forum in a Google search?
My maternal and paternal families have lived in Los Angeles since the mid-1930s. I am a fourth generation Angeleno and I'm 25 years old. My father was born in the East side of Los Angeles (back when restrictive housing covenants forced black residents to live North of Slauson Avenue and East of Central Avenue). Believe it or not folks, Inglewood [where Sonny Bono went to high school], Compton [where Kevin Costner was born], Gardena [which had a white gang in the 40's & 50's called the "Spook Hunters"] and all the areas west of Central Avenue were FORBIDDEN for black residents to buy homes in. South Central used to be 'lily white' before 1963. And my parents, who are Babyboomers attended segregated L.A. public schools at the time.
I was born in 1982 in SUBURBAN, MIDDLE CLASS Gardena, California [The South Bay]. I was not born in poverty nor crime. I was born in a private [Kaiser Permanente] Hospital and had a pediatrician. :-) My father (who earned only a GED) is a successful small business owner and my mother worked for the U.S. Postal Service for 25 years until she retired. They are homeowners and so were my late grandparents. I DID NOT come from poverty or a broken home. I attended LAUSD public schools from grades K-12, graduated from Crenshaw High School's magnet program with honors, in a school that was 98% black and latino.
I went on to an elite, highly selective liberal arts university back east and graduated in four years with a B.A. in English Literature and History. In addition, my former CRENSHAW HIGH classmates graduated from [or are currently attending] Berkeley, all UCs, Michigan, Yale, Stanford, Indiana, Harvard Graduate School, Princeton, the Claremont Colleges, historically black colleges [Morehouse, Spelman, Howard], Georgetown, NYU, law schools, J-schools, B-schools, etc.
I am a product of the much criticized LAUSD public school system, a two-parent suburban black family, and a product of an inner city magnet program.
I AM LOS ANGELES.
No, I don't "talk white," I'm far from atypical, my skin is dark, I speak with a round-sounding, typical black Angeleno accent and I am LOS ANGELES.
My parents -- who, by the way, never attended college -- have been married for over 33 years now and have since moved into an upper middle class black neighborhood [Ladera Heights/Baldwin Hills Estates/View Park/Windsor Hills] which are some of the wealthiest predominately black communities in the United States.
I currently live in a great brownstone on a cobblestone street in a gentrified New York City neighborhood -- the ones you witness if you've ever caught a syndicated episode of Sex and The City. And, I do white-collar work.
I AM Los Angeles and Black, and black people have a RICH and DEEP history with the landscape of Los Angeles since the very beginning -- the city was founded by native American, latino and black settlers!
To my black people moving to L.A. or "experiencing" it for the first time: If you rely on television and the media to sell you a fantasy of yourself and your own "experience," how in the hell are you ever going to craft your own?
I think it is safe to say as humans we are all prejudice in one way or another, be it economically or skin color or anything else. It is when you allow you prejudgement to get in the way of someone elses happiness, success or when it prevents you from engaging with others. Try not to pass your prejudgements down, let each generation decide for themselves based on their own experience not yours.
Yes Jerz whites do have an easier time. I'm reffering to american-whites. I know some immigrants who've had a tough time. Here's the deal. If you're a straight laces white person no one gives you a second thought. You can go to any shop, restaurant, country wherever without people giving you a second glance. No matter how well a black person carries themselves we tend to stick out like a sore thumb. People kinda get on alert. If people don't know you, it's almost as if they are waiting for something to happen.
That said, I know when you're white you're judged on how you carry yourself, what you're wearing, are you trying to be something your not etc...
I have a very mixed family. My stepmother is Philipino. I love her to death. All of her family is accepting of her relationship. However, I remember as a child my step-uncle always seemed uneasy around me. I overheard him one time saying me and my dad were the exceptions.
My dad is currently going for his masters' in Art. My stepmother works at the Marriot as a housekeeper. She is dealing with her own racism so to speak. She has worked there forever. Most of the people who work there are philipino. She had this friend she would spend money on all the time. She felt bad because this friend had no one. well it was apparant to us that she was being used for money. The friend became increasingly jealous and is now spreading gossip about my mom and bad-mouthing her relationship with a black guy. She is upset that my mom has a good husband and she has no one. But, she reverts to racism. How sad is that?
Alls we can do is our part. Understand we all have something we don't want to be prejudjed about. Try not to do that to others. It's the only way.
I don't think Affirmative Action helps our image. It may help us, but not our image, which is the problem. IMO
Yes Jerz whites do have an easier time. I'm reffering to american-whites.
Just to clarify...I definitely didn't say whites don't have an easier time in general than blacks. I said whites have *nowhere near as easy a time as blacks think they do*. Just wanted to point that out, because I do know that in general whites seem to be given a less hard time. BUT...it's just not to the extent that non-whites would think.
Did you ever by any chance see the old SNL skit with Eddie Murphy in "white person" makeup? And he got on a bus and the last black person left the bus and every single white person on the bus, even though they were all strangers, whipped out champagne and stuff? And then he went up to a newsstand and the newsstand owner glanced at him, saw he was white and whispered "Here, just take this!" and gave him a newspaper without charging him.
That was some funny stuff--but also EXTREMELY sensitive on the part of Eddie Murphy, who actually crossed the racial barrier in reverse and more or less said, "Look, people, whites may have it easier but they're not all running around making things a country club for each other!"
I do agree with the rest of what you said, about restaurants, etc., so I'm not dissing your post. I like your posts. But I wanted to point out that the extreme view that doors are literally opened for whites by just being white is not true. I can tell you for simple point of fact that I've worked for every penny I had, and been demoralized, held back, made to do extreme (and I mean extreme) amounts of work compared to others in the employment "boys' club" or the boss's "favorites", etc. The truth is that as much as blacks resent whites for lumping them all together, so too do whites resent being lumped all together as if we don't have to do a thing to earn our keep and be accepted but open up a door. You may not like Affirmative Action (and have the basis for judgment where I don't), but I don't even have Affirmative Action. My relatives came from the wrong place. We got our rape, village-wide slaughter, burning of homes and barns, murdered children, having our goods stolen on "suspicion of being Jews" (oh god FORBID) for many, many, many generations, in a totally other place, from which I can expect no reparition even though it left my family literally peniless and stepping off a boat in New York. (However, they were lucky as "******" hatred in Eastern Europe continued strong and an unbelievable amount of Poles were sent to concentration camps since such genetically stupid people could only be expected to be at best trainable.) I do realize Affirmative Action comes off a little lame which is why I asked what specifically is being asked of whites in terms of an apology.
Again, I like your posts a lot but I did want to explain that I wasn't saying whites don't have it any easier. Just that the idea that we're all breezing happily through life without hardship is not correct at all. And...it is extremely depreciating to have worked for every penny you have, come home exhausted night after night, fretted over daycare for your children, couldn't get in an employment door b/c you had ovaries (or in the case of a man held back, not perhaps having the contacts...or whatever the case may be), perhaps gotten yourself through school on your own and just generally worked and worked and worked but to have it all reduced to, "The only reason you're successful is you're white."
Location: Monterey Bay, California -- watching the sea lions, whales and otters! :D
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Quote:
Carillon I AM Los Angeles and Black, and black people have a RICH and DEEP history with the landscape of Los Angeles since the very beginning -- the city was founded by native American, latino and black settlers!
To my black people moving to L.A. or "experiencing" it for the first time: If you rely on television and the media to sell you a fantasy of yourself and your own "experience," how in the hell are you ever going to craft your own?
PAINT. YOUR. LIFE. IN. YOUR. OWN. COLORS.
Great post! You told it like it is!! YES! You make your life the way you want it to be!! The difference for you...is attitude! You have the attitude for success!! It's so nice to hear from people like yourself -- we need to hear more about the positive aspects of succeeding in a world that is difficult for all of us. Life is not easy, it is what you make it. You're a great role model and I'm glad you stopped by!! Thank you!
These are fantastic posts from everyone so far. I am so glad we can have this truthful dialogue. When I talked about an official apology, I meant an apology from the American Government, because it was their laws that sanctioned slavery (even if all the states did not do it) and the Jim Crow Laws, among others. And I am not discounting the injustices other races have endured, nor am I saying that the reparations they got in anyway make up for what happened to them. I'm just saying that the Government at least made an official attempt at it. And Carillon brought up something about college funds that made me think of a possible solution. I think it would be great if African Americans were allowed to attend the college of their choice for free, as long as they have applied and been accepted to the school. That way, Black people who want to advance have that option without worrying about how much it will cost. Just a thought.
To JerZ, thank you for your contribution to race relations between our peoples, and I'm sorry about what happened between you and your friend. Perhaps he was in so much pain about slavery, that the only way he knew to react to your apology was with anger. I'm not saying that was okay, I'm just saying that might have been what he was feeling. And I don't think individual white people should apologize for slavery, especially if their families never owned slaves.
To Carillon, I am also from middle-class upbringing, and am currently in college. The problem is, Black people like you and I are seen as not-the-norm, and we need to change that image of us. So, perhaps we have to come to the conclusion that America will probably never apologize, never give us anything, and it's up to us to go after what we want. It will take time, but slowly we must turn the negatives into positives. And yes, we must stop looking to the media and tv for images of ourselves. They are not there yet, and it's up to us to create them. Cheers.
jerz wrote:
"It would be so weird for me to go around apologizing to blacks for slavery when three-quarters of my family came over here starving from Poland...seeing all whites grouped together as we're all a bunch of people whose families had things handed to them, and who definitely all owned slaves. Trust me when I tell you that at no time in history did any large percentage of the American population own slaves!" end quote
That is absolutely correct Jerz...most of america's "whites" were living in the same conditions that our LA Mexican immigrants suffer today...or much worse! (and i'm not getting into illegal vs legal, either).
And we have white immigrants in countries all over the world who work for 3 or 4 dollars an hour in the fields and sleep 8 to a trailer, and take night classes to learn English. They may look like priviledged Wasps by skin and eye colour, but they are far from it.
My grandparents were sicilian immigrants (no history of slavery...(unless you count some roman legion abusing the sicilians) and guess what, italians were scapegoated and lynched in my home town along with their african american neighbours. (until they teamed up and ran the persecuting "Whites" out of town...but that's another story.)
i use "whites" loosely, because it is a term that has boadened over time to include italians and others who were not considered white they they immigrated here. The big difference, though, is immigrants chose to come (however brutal the adjustment); BUT their black neighbors were forced to.
I do agree with some posters who say to build your own dream, start over...of course that is the only way. But part of the "building over" may come from forgiveness...not from individuals like you, me, or generations that had nothing to do with slavery...but from the mindset and laws (represented by government officials today) that allowed slavery to occur and remain for so long.
I think it's a mistake for anyone to take reparations to mean that all whites now must apologize for being white (or for not being black) or for the doings of corrupt people. What is happening in the UK is ideal...Tony Blair, the queen, etc are celebrating abolition and expressing regret for Great Britain's history with slavery.
I like that it is a "celebration" that a terrible thing that ended...i think that is a healthy perspective to take. It allows for more healing and co-operation, rather than resentment.
No-one should expect Tony Blair, the man, to say "i'm sorry"--that's not fair. It should be enough for him to express in public that he is sickened by his country's past policies, and wants to make things right now. I think their government is looking into certain companies, like sugar (plantations) to give reparations. I hope so.
Because i believe, reparations should not consist of "throwing money at people"...it will hopefully be given to organizations that help such as:
Searching for ancestors; Archival Libraries; Graves and burials for the souls who were dumped in mass graves; and perhaps most imortantly, educational programmes that teach blacks and whites alike about this part of history and teaches the obligation all races have for respect and love for one another.
That would be the best reparation ( in my dream world).
No, I know white people don't get things handed to them. Unless of course you come from money and/or affluence. It's not always what you know, but who you know. Wealthier people period just have more keys to the doors of success than the general population. All races included.
Btw, my in-laws are white. Great people.
Wisteria- I agree attitude is everything. We need to have one foot in the present the other in the future. If we keep looking and stressing on our past how can we see our future????
The best thing that has happened to black-americans as a whole IMO is the Civil Rights Movement. We came together and created change. They didn't have a pity party. We have so much more rights as black americans and have progressed as nation because of everyone who came together(black and white).
As far as an apology; yeah I would be humiliated if the government publicly apologized about slavery this many years later. I posted earlier what the government could do to in regards to reparations that would make me feel better personally. We are not a weak people who need hand-outs. A public condemnation of racism be it overt or covert could send a message that it won't be tolerated. That may change things, maybe it won't.
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I mean I can't stand racism. Let me just say that, although it doesn't matter one way or another--people usually say "I'm not this" or "I'm not that" just to make themselves feel better; it doesn't actually help the person in question.
Okay. Yes, whites have definitely been segregated, in writing, throughout U.S. history. Take "No Irish need apply" as one simple example, only because everybody knows about it. Other non-blacks have also been kept out of buildings, homes, away from jobs, have been beaten, etc.--certain Asian groups were cited above. Not saying that to belittle the black experience in America, which is pretty reprehensible, and not to say "What are you complaining about? We all get it one way or another," but rather just to make you realize that you're not alone. I think sometimes blacks feel very very alone. Very cut off from the rest of society, or only "allowed" to a certain extent--that Glass Ceiling mentioned above. That's pretty awful too.
I think I'm gonna have a tough time getting anything out of them.........
