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Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massnative71
So you are implying that the "true left" (or those who pass whatever your litmus test is), are universally a bunch of equality/gentlemanly/goody-goody-two-shoes? Do you really want to go there??? Has absolutely nothing to do with politics.
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I never implied any such thing, but hey, don't let me stop you from creating more red herring and straw man arguments.
What argument are you wishing to win? Two wrongs do not make a right - this horse has been beaten. Pointing out hypocrisy doesn't not somehow unshackle Kraft from morale responsibility.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 37,120,090 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrewsburried
What argument are you wishing to win? Two wrongs do not make a right - this horse has been beaten. Pointing out hypocrisy doesn't not somehow unshackle Kraft from morale responsibility.
There is some cognitive dissonance with right wingers where they believe if they can find any hypocrisy, whether it is real or created (either in their head, by creating false narratives or false equivalencies) that the positions/beliefs/deeds of the person accused of hypocrisy has no grounds to take a position, or no authority to do so.
Since everyone is inherently flawed and complex, this results in no one being able to be judged, if those people don't like what they're being judged upon. It's insidious, and the implications are far reaching in their destruction.
My point is that those on the left have a tendency to turn a blind eye towards this sort of exploitation, on a macro level. Then you have these extremists saying there is no border crisis, calling for the abolishment of ICE, etc. I'm just wondering where these politicians like Warren, Pelosi and Cortez would now stand, if they still think there is no real problem now that the "other side" is the perpetuator (knowingly or not, but that is a whole other topic).
I don't see the left as turning a blind eye to this sort of exploitation, nor do I see the right turning a blind eye. I think both sides agree on the problem, but disagree on the solution. I think this is a classic ends vs. means debate. The left stance on the border wall and ICE is basically that neither go a long way toward solving the problem. The women in this case were brought over here and given actual work visas under the assumption that they would have legitimate work in the parlors. Obviously that wasn't the case. A wall wouldn't have stopped it, and ICE wouldn't be able to do anything about immigrants with legitimate work visas. The left wing case is that a wall and the presence of ICE do very little to stop/reduce this type of activity. The right wing case is that those things will help.
Anyway, I am pretty sure that most liberal politicians would be against prostitution in any form. This article ran in the Globe today. If you can't read it due to the paywall, it basically makes the case than any form of prostitution (trafficked or not) is gender-based violence and exploitation. I would argue that this is the exact argument you'd hear from AOC, Pelosi, Warren, etc. on the topic.
I actually don't have an extremely firm stance on the issue. I used to lean toward legalize, regulate, and tax it, but over the past few years, especially hearing more from women who have been in this situation (both trafficked, or "willing"), I don't feel so certain that it's the right way to handle it. Problem is, I'm not sure what IS the right way to handle it.
Of course they knew what was going on there. We had some of this stuff going on relatively locally not all that long ago. Providence was semi-famous for Asian massage parlors that offered these types of services. In fact, it was legal there until 2009. This was during my college years, and I lifeguarded at a beach on the RI/MA line. The regulars (mostly old guys) would talk to us and each other and regularly joked about going to the massage parlors in Providence (wink wink, nod nod). Word of mouth was huge for business. So yeah, I find it pretty hard to believe that any of the men caught up in this didn't know what was happening.
I'm quite sure the joking and wink wink nod nod stuff was because they were going there for sex and not a massage. Not because they were aware of (and knowingly enabling) a human trafficking ring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrfox
Even if they didn't know trafficking was involved, do we really believe that anyone cared enough to do research beforehand? It's a don't ask, don't tell type of relationship. As long as any of those guys can reasonably say "I had no idea these women were trafficked!" That's all they need, and if they have that, they're not going to try and dig deeper.
Even if they did some research, it would only be speculation anyway.
Correct - I'm not talking party here, just pure ideology/theology. Painting Kraft as a victim is not a far in basic ideology from father's in Pakistan who choose first to kill their daughter over the perpetrator who raped them. It's a fundamental devaluing of female will and male responsibility. The latter is magnitudes more extreme, but the thinking which gets one there is shared.
The Pakistani killing their daughter who was raped, is because as a sullied female, no one would marry her, therefore she has become a burden to her family. It's wrong, but it's not the same situation here. Otherwise, of the women working in that massage parlor, they left their countries (where most likely they were raped or already prostitutes) and came to the US for a better quality of life than in their home countries. So I suppose that the liberals would just have those women sent back to their countries, after they are done testifying against the people running the sex trafficking operation.
In a First World country, women do have much more say over their lives, but in more primitive, traditional culture developing countries, that is not the case. And it takes time for these societies to change.
Anyway, if I were one of those women (not knowing much English, no schooling, no other job skills), perhaps I'd rather be giving a billionaire a massage and a happy ending, than being a caretaker to an elderly invalid and cleaning poop off of them and their bedsheets.
I'm quite sure the joking and wink wink nod nod stuff was because they were going there for sex and not a massage. Not because they were aware of (and knowingly enabling) a human trafficking ring.
Absolutely. My point was that they wouldn't care enough to take the initiative to look into it, and wouldn't want to know anyway. The guilt of actually knowing might ruin the fun for them (well, most of them), so why put the effort into digging into it? This is a pretty common human attitude towards anything that may be questionable once you dig beneath the veneer a bit.
Quote:
Even if they did some research, it would only be speculation anyway.
Whether or not it might be speculation is sort of irrelevant. The point is, most people participating don't want to know.
What argument are you wishing to win? Two wrongs do not make a right - this horse has been beaten. Pointing out hypocrisy doesn't not somehow unshackle Kraft from morale responsibility.
I never said two wrongs make a right, nor did I suggest Kraft is absolved from moral responsibility. Those who defended him, said nothing of politics in their reasoning. It was YOU trying to draw a connection between "right wingers" as promoting this kind of ideology as though liberals aren't equally responsible. Nobody said the reverse.
The Pakistani killing their daughter who was raped, is because as a sullied female, no one would marry her, therefore she has become a burden to her family. It's wrong, but it's not the same situation here. Otherwise, of the women working in that massage parlor, they left their countries (where most likely they were raped or already prostitutes) and came to the US for a better quality of life than in their home countries. So I suppose that the liberals would just have those women sent back to their countries, after they are done testifying against the people running the sex trafficking operation.
In a First World country, women do have much more say over their lives, but in more primitive, traditional culture developing countries, that is not the case. And it takes time for these societies to change.
Anyway, if I were one of those women (not knowing much English, no schooling, no other job skills), perhaps I'd rather be giving a billionaire a massage and a happy ending, than being a caretaker to an elderly invalid and cleaning poop off of them and their bedsheets.
Jesus Christ, the contortions you're doing to try and defend Kraft and the traffickers would make Satan ill, and put any normal person in the hospital.
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