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Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
These days everyone is wherever. There are Black Germans. There are White Kenyans. There are Pakistani Spaniards. There are Iranian Italian.
Being a citizen of a country has nothing to do with race.
Lots of people with parents or grandparents from wherever in Europe are in South America. Or Mexico for that matter. The percentage varies from nation to nation with some nations it's a small part of the population and other nations its a large part.
Millions of Chinese now live in Africa. Likely to surpass non Arab White population if it hasn't already.
Why are Mexicans generally not considered white in the U.S.?
I'm going to give an "outsider" perspective (I'm black American, about as dark as LeBron James in complexion).
Irish people weren't considered white when they arrived in the states. That's about as white as you can get and yet they were "other." Our British roots as a nation are strong and it has informed much of how we view different groups of people. 'White' in the U.S.-sense is not purely about skin color. It's a combination of skin color and shared culture.
Many Irish folks that came over during the potato famine were Catholics with different cultural traditions than the existing WASP (white Anglo-Saxon Protestant) population. I feel like Mexicans fall into the same bucket. You 'look' white but are not really considered WHITE...not yet anyway.
On top of that, the Irish are mostly all-pale skinned though hair and eye color vary quite a bit....from "black Irish" with dark/black hair to those that look like Vikings with high cheekbones and bright red/blonde hair. Mexicans vary considerably in terms of skin color...much more than the Irish. The most visible/rich/famous/powerful Mexicans we see in movies and TV (especially Spanish language TV) are uniformly pale and white but that's not really representative of the population as a whole.
Imagine if 90% of U.S. media showed 6'5" black people that look like Samuel L. Jackson. There are a decent number of Americans that fit this profile but the vast majority of Americans look nothing like that and our media reflects this. If I knew nothing about Mexico and only watched Spanish-language TV, I'd assume everyone was Irish, possibly Turkish or Iranian speaking Spanish. The average American doesn't see many truly white Mexicans in their day-to-day life......if they even see Mexicans at all.
I live in Texas and see the whole spectrum. Many Mexican Americans, I didn't even know they were of Mexican descent until they mentioned their last name or talked about their family. People (probably) just assume white Mexicans are Greek, Italian etc.
I agree with being white in the US is a combination of skin color and shared culture. That's why you can have Arabs, Iranians, and North Africans be classified as white/Caucasian for the census count, but aren't white(basically European descendant) in a social sense.
But in the case of the Irish, I think they were always white in terms of census count and even socially (although lower caste) in some capacity, perhaps with the sole exception are those of which were living in certain parts of the extremely segregated south where being "white" was virtually synonymous with Protestant and British extraction. Fredrick Douglas once wrote in his book Narrative of an American Slave that some Irish workers he came across in Baltimore were white. Many of us Black Americans have Irish/Scottish ancestry, some of which stems from Irish slaveholders, hence some of us bear surnames beginning with "Mc" or ending in "ly".
In case of Mexicans, they are generally a very mixed bunch. Even some of the ones who look white-ish with very light skin could have about 40% Native ancestry in addition to another 3-7% Sub-Saharan African on a DNA test. Considering White Americans on average are like 98% European, it's no wonder why someone with some degree of non-European admixture could be considered mixed or "other". Mexicans in general just don't fit into the American perception of what it means to be white. But indeed, there are a decent chunk of white Mexicans, even to the surprise of Mexicans themselves. I once had a supervisor that fit this description, to the degree that even other Mexicans thought he was the typical White American. He looked like a person that could be a intermediary between Northwestern and Southern European.
But there was a time in history that Mexicans in the Southwest US(including Texas) were legally white and saw themselves as such, even some going as far as to preserve this social status by supporting racial segregation.
Last edited by Chicagoland60426; 12-22-2019 at 01:17 PM..
The majority of Latin American immigrants to the US have substantial Native and/or African ancestry.
They are not considered white in Spain or in Europe because they are not white and actually look distinct. Unless you are talking about Latin American immigrants who are actually white, and yes of course they exist.
Meanwhile it's much harder to tell the difference between people from different European nations.
Irish, Germans, and Italian immigrants often changed their names and once they lost the accents it was pretty easy to ASSIMILATE in ways that non white immigrants could not.
There's a huge difference there.
Is obvious I was referring to White Hispanics.
Many you wouldn't even know that they speak Spanish because they look no different than your average White Anglo person. Others like me have more of a Mediterranean appearance, so you would probably confused them for Italians, Greeks or even from someone from Eastern Europe or possibly the Middle East.
Yes there was a lot of mixture in all of Latin America, even in Argentina and Uruguay ( Even if both ethnic groups denied it, there still was some mixture as well in those two country with the Mestizo and Native Population and many Ancestral DNA tests, conducted in those two countries have proven that ), but there still many of us that have predominantly European ancestry and are therefore White, even if were a minority group, we do exist.
I agree with being white in the US is a combination of skin color and shared culture. That's why you can have Arabs, Iranians, and North Africans be classified as white/Caucasian for the census count, but aren't white(basically European descendant) in a social sense.
But in the case of the Irish, I think they were always white in terms of census count and even socially (although lower caste) in some capacity, perhaps with the sole exception are those of which were living in certain parts of the extremely segregated south where being "white" was virtually synonymous with Protestant and British extraction. Fredrick Douglas once wrote in his book Narrative of an American Slave that some Irish workers he came across in Baltimore were white. Many of us Black Americans have Irish/Scottish ancestry, some of which stems from Irish slaveholders, hence some of us bear surnames beginning with "Mc" or ending in "ly".
In case of Mexicans, they are generally a very mixed bunch. Even some of the ones who look white-ish with very light skin could have about 40% Native ancestry in addition to another 3-7% Sub-Saharan African on a DNA test. Considering White Americans on average are like 98% European, it's no wonder why someone with some degree of non-European admixture could be considered mixed or "other". Mexicans in general just don't fit into the American perception of what it means to be white. But indeed, there are a decent chunk of white Mexicans, even to the surprise of Mexicans themselves. I once had a supervisor that fit this description, to the degree that even other Mexicans thought he was the typical White American. He looked like a person that could be a intermediary between Northwestern and Southern European.
But there was a time in history that Mexicans in the Southwest US(including Texas) were legally white and saw themselves as such, even some going as far as to preserve this social status by supporting racial segregation.
I actually seem many ancestral DNA tests of multiple Mexicans and like you said there's many that have 40% or even more of NA DNA and still look very White. Many could even pass as Southern Europeans, but are still very mixed. Phenotypically they look White but genetically speaking they have a balance of NA and European ancestry. I mean you would of expected them to have mostly European DNA or lean more towards the European side but surprisingly at all many come out with a high NA DNA. Just proofs that sometimes phenotype doesn't correlate to genetics.
Then again, ancestral DNA testing, even though it's getting better, it's still not 100% accurate. That's why many DNA test companies like Ancestry or 23 and me they give you a percentage range of where you might fall under that specific ethnic group.
Many you wouldn't even know that they speak Spanish because they look no different than your average White Anglo person. Others like me have more of a Mediterranean appearance, so you would probably confused them for Italians, Greeks or even from someone from Eastern Europe or possibly the Middle East.
Yes there was a lot of mixture in all of Latin America, even in Argentina and Uruguay ( Even if both ethnic groups denied it, there still was some mixture as well in those two country with the Mestizo and Native Population and many Ancestral DNA tests, conducted in those two countries have proven that ), but there still many of us that have predominantly European ancestry and are therefore White, even if were a minority group, we do exist.
I actually live in Spain, so I know that Spain and Portugal are European nations and that the original Iberians were white. You do have a lot of recent non white immigrants, but that's only in the past 30 years.
I agree with being white in the US is a combination of skin color and shared culture. That's why you can have Arabs, Iranians, and North Africans be classified as white/Caucasian for the census count, but aren't white(basically European descendant) in a social sense.
But in the case of the Irish, I think they were always white in terms of census count and even socially (although lower caste) in some capacity, perhaps with the sole exception are those of which were living in certain parts of the extremely segregated south where being "white" was virtually synonymous with Protestant and British extraction. Fredrick Douglas once wrote in his book Narrative of an American Slave that some Irish workers he came across in Baltimore were white. Many of us Black Americans have Irish/Scottish ancestry, some of which stems from Irish slaveholders, hence some of us bear surnames beginning with "Mc" or ending in "ly".
In case of Mexicans, they are generally a very mixed bunch. Even some of the ones who look white-ish with very light skin could have about 40% Native ancestry in addition to another 3-7% Sub-Saharan African on a DNA test. Considering White Americans on average are like 98% European, it's no wonder why someone with some degree of non-European admixture could be considered mixed or "other". Mexicans in general just don't fit into the American perception of what it means to be white. But indeed, there are a decent chunk of white Mexicans, even to the surprise of Mexicans themselves. I once had a supervisor that fit this description, to the degree that even other Mexicans thought he was the typical White American. He looked like a person that could be a intermediary between Northwestern and Southern European.
But there was a time in history that Mexicans in the Southwest US(including Texas) were legally white and saw themselves as such, even some going as far as to preserve this social status by supporting racial segregation.
That's just utter ignorance. Some Arabs and North Africans are real Black (as in pitch Black) and many are mixed race. Of course some are outright white. You tell the racial diversity by looking at them, but genetic tests and historical records confirm this.
The case of Irish, Greeks, Italians and even Germans and Scandinavians being once considered as outsiders to the "White race" is often brought up to draw a comparison with Mexicans and Central Americans. Giving credit to it is very tempting. However a closer look will probably challenge the aforementioned statement prediction power.
I agree, for long, being "White" in the US really meant being of British extraction. The American society had hijacked the racial (i.e. phenotype) term and narrowed it to serve and flatter its nationalistic sentiment. Greeks, Italians, Irish, Germans had always regarded as White in Europe were suddenly downgraded as they cross the Ocean. It took some time, but those non-British Europeans racial identity was progressively restored.
Mexicans aren't considered white because the vast majority of them aren't, and unless they find a way to change their phenotype, it will keep on being that way. Sure, some are but they are a small minority. Note that it's not just a "racist white american" thing. In Europe, Mexicans aren't considered any Whiter.
I don't believe time is a factor either. Mexicans have immigrated to the US for a long time, and their status hasn't change. Look at the Chinese. They were not welcome. For a while they were mocked, ridiculed, worked menial jobs, suffered harsh treatment and discrimination. For generations they emphasized education, entrepreneurship and hard work. Nowadays they are one of the most successful communities in the US. They didn't care nor need to be considered as "White" to achieve all that. Being administratively considered "White", or passing as 'White" will not fix Mexican-Americans problem such as teenage pregnancies, high school dropouts, gangs and violence.
I agree.....I'm speaking of Mexicans that are entirely of Spanish descent or those with only a trace of Native American blood. For them, they are "white" racially but not in terms of American culture.
Indians (from the Subcontinent), Iranians, some north Africans etc., are "white" the same way many Mexicans are...sharing many genetic markers as part of the too-broad category of Caucasian people but not what we think of as white.
Most people of Mexican descent that come to the U.S. have a reasonable degree of Native blood and are far more prevalent than the Canelo Alvarez-type Mexican that many want to push. The rich/white Mexicans visit the U.S. and maybe even attend university, but these aren't the people you see fleeing poverty for the U.S. border.
I agree with being white in the US is a combination of skin color and shared culture. That's why you can have Arabs, Iranians, and North Africans be classified as white/Caucasian for the census count, but aren't white(basically European descendant) in a social sense.
But in the case of the Irish, I think they were always white in terms of census count and even socially (although lower caste) in some capacity, perhaps with the sole exception are those of which were living in certain parts of the extremely segregated south where being "white" was virtually synonymous with Protestant and British extraction. Fredrick Douglas once wrote in his book Narrative of an American Slave that some Irish workers he came across in Baltimore were white. Many of us Black Americans have Irish/Scottish ancestry, some of which stems from Irish slaveholders, hence some of us bear surnames beginning with "Mc" or ending in "ly".
In case of Mexicans, they are generally a very mixed bunch. Even some of the ones who look white-ish with very light skin could have about 40% Native ancestry in addition to another 3-7% Sub-Saharan African on a DNA test. Considering White Americans on average are like 98% European, it's no wonder why someone with some degree of non-European admixture could be considered mixed or "other". Mexicans in general just don't fit into the American perception of what it means to be white. But indeed, there are a decent chunk of white Mexicans, even to the surprise of Mexicans themselves. I once had a supervisor that fit this description, to the degree that even other Mexicans thought he was the typical White American. He looked like a person that could be a intermediary between Northwestern and Southern European.
But there was a time in history that Mexicans in the Southwest US(including Texas) were legally white and saw themselves as such, even some going as far as to preserve this social status by supporting racial segregation.
Good points. I'm black American; mom has Scottish blood and a prominent Scottish clan name to boot and my dad has an Irish last name plus Irish blood to go along with it (based on 23andme results lol).
I do think in our culture, a Spanish surname often affects our perception. A white Latino might be viewed as "white" until we hear their last name is Rodriguez, Martinez, Guzman etc. I remember being very confused by former President Vicente Fox. In my mind he looked like a white dude with an old English last name but his first name was Vicente and he was prez of Mexico??? We (as Americans) tend to put people into boxes...though I guess everyone does that to some degree.
I actually seem many ancestral DNA tests of multiple Mexicans and like you said there's many that have 40% or even more of NA DNA and still look very White. Many could even pass as Southern Europeans, but are still very mixed. Phenotypically they look White but genetically speaking they have a balance of NA and European ancestry. I mean you would of expected them to have mostly European DNA or lean more towards the European side but surprisingly at all many come out with a high NA DNA. Just proofs that sometimes phenotype doesn't correlate to genetics.
Then again, ancestral DNA testing, even though it's getting better, it's still not 100% accurate. That's why many DNA test companies like Ancestry or 23 and me they give you a percentage range of where you might fall under that specific ethnic group.
Perhaps to you but to me a Portuguese person a person mixed with 40% Amerindian doesn't look "white" they look very mixed. I can easily notice a difference at 25% they just look different as well, not always possible at 12% Amerindian but they look different too sometimes.
But white mexicans are overrepresented in Mexican media. In the soap operas almost 99% of the actors are white with european looking. I never seen a brown mexican in the media.
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