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If these same "extremely intelligent" people dropped out of high school because "classroom style learning in not for them" would you look at them differently.
Your argument on why college is a lie could be used to say high school is a lie.
We teach more in middle school today than people were taught their entire life 100 years ago. We are constantly progressing and the bar is always moving higher. I respect anyone right to not go to college just as I respect anyone's right to drop out of high school. So as long as they know the average college graduate makes $20k more a year than the average high school graduate. If your perfectly happy making less money fine.
And I hate to tell you but vocational training is a lot like college.
"However, as the labor market becomes more specialized and economies demand higher levels of skill, governments and businesses are increasingly investing in the future of vocational education through publicly funded training organizations and subsidized apprenticeship or traineeship initiatives for businesses. At the post-secondary level vocational education is typically provided by an institute of technology, or by a local community college."
You learn in a classroom with actual books. If classroom learning is not for you then vocational training is not for you.
Factory jobs, manufacturing jobs, etc. are the types of jobs you're going to get without "classroom training". And these type of jobs are disappearing from America. I started out as an electrician and there was a lot of classroom training involved.
I will agree about the middle school teachings - my son is an above average student (when he wants to be) and last year in the 5th grade he was being taught Algebra - he needed some help and I am a math wiz (taking Calculis as a ellective class in high school). I really could not believe that at 10 he was learning Algebra, it amazed me and the fact that he had a genuine understanding amazed me. 10 - I was 12/13 learning algebra. Students are reading at a higher level so on and so forth.
I just think it really is too much sometimes. As a parent, I see things a little differently. I think kids need to be kids and there is in my opinion such a thing as "INFORMATION OVERLOAD". To me, they are simply learning too much at a young age and the information is just too much to retain. I can only imagine how hard it would be for kids who aren't typically good students - they would be lost with all this information.
Is it just me,but I notice when i was living in miami,I ran into so many people that came from up north,and other areas on the map running from the cold, and snow fleaing to miami just to work like a regular type of customer service job,fast food place,or some may even get lucky finding a job that pays them double digits but in miami as if thats going ot save them being its so expensive,but my question is,is the miami lifestyle worth living in miami when one makes no real money,and working some regular wack job? I dont get it,how people lie to themselves and say they are happy with a 15 thousand dollar a year salary.I learn the hard way and when i return to miami or california in the distant future at least i want to have a career
Exactly. I'm totally with you on this. I mean seriously? I know how cold it gets up north. I've lived in both Canada and Chicago at one point. However, you don't just flock to the south because you want to get away from the cold winter! Have a career goal in mind and what you can accomplish down there while your there! Sheesh Louis young people are clueless these days... I'm young but would NEVER do something like that without a solid career goal in mind. And especially not in Miami.
Exactly. I'm totally with you on this. I mean seriously? I know how cold it gets up north. I've lived in both Canada and Chicago at one point. However, you don't just flock to the south because you want to get away from the cold winter! Have a career goal in mind and what you can accomplish down there while your there! Sheesh Louis young people are clueless these days... I'm young but would NEVER do something like that without a solid career goal in mind. And especially not in Miami.
Allen, you are right but my question to the OP is who are these people that he is speaking about. Don't get me wrong I know they are out there, but I would like a specific example of this - I have NEVER met anyone who said I'm moving to Florida because it is hot, but I have no ideal what I will do for money. Young or older, it has just never happened, to me that is. This advice is good for anyone moving to any state. If I lived in Florida, I wouldn't move to NY and say "oh there are tons of industries, I'll find something to pay the bills. All of the jobs that the OP noted are not jobs people would fair well with in any Metro area. I believe those salaries are pretty standard for those jobs. My perspective is obviously very different, due to my work experience, but I would never go anywhere without a "MASTER PLAN" - these people who come to Miami to realize their dreams of warm weather were probably not doing great in what ever state they came from either. INTELLIGENT people don't just decide to leave a state where they are employed solidly to go to a sunny warm state without a plan. That plan should not include living on the beaches because you have no money. LOL. Do we all agree on this one?
Why would anyone make life decisions based on the exception and not the rule. I was watching E! the other day and they were showing the stories of a lot of people who were poor but played the lottery and won. It seemed to be a lot of them. Most of them worked really crappy jobs and had problems with alcohol. Maybe you should get a crappy job, drink all day and maybe you'll hit the lottery like them.
But since you like stories here is another funny one. When I graduate with my associated degree I got my first job as a project engineer with a construction company. I was working in the field making $16.50. I had to do the payroll for all the workers on my project. I remember handing paychecks out to the laborers and seeing that brand new laborers made $18.90 an hour because they were in a union. I though to myself I should have skipped college and just got a job as a laborer. The funny twist, 5 years later that laborer now makes about $21 an hour and is laid off half of the year because laborers like him come a dime a dozen, so he only takes home about $22,000 a year while I on the other hand take home quadruple that. Added to that he has to bust his @ss in the summer heat and the winter cold to make less than a quarter of what I make while I sit in the office and conduct meetings with the owner.
I try to help him out by giving him side jobs when I need work on my rental property. He told me he just wasn't cut out for "classroom work". But when I explained to him the stuff I learned getting an associated degree in construction management it was all stuff he felt comfortable with. He was under the impression he would have to go and learn about physics and other advanced issues. I explained how I hated calculus which is why I switch from engineering to construction management. I had classes that taught me about supervising workers, labor productivity, planning, scheduling, etc. All stuff he could easily pick up. I did go on to get a bachelors in business for the exposure but the Associate would have been enough to get him out of the field. He doesn't want to go back now because he feels like its too late (although I don't). But you can bet that his son will at least be in community college. Because of the cost, associated degree actually give you the biggest bang for your buck.
By the way here is a management trainee position that pays only $23,600 and it says it takes 2-3 years to actually become a manager.
And look at this, Mcdonalds is actually encouraging their managers to get a degree to compete:
McDonald's is currently the only restaurant organization to be recognized by the American Council on Education, (ACE), for our restaurant management curriculum. Your participation in our training programs can earn you up to 46 college credits towards your 2-year or 4-year degree programs.
Colleges are actually offering RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT CURRICULUM. How long do you think it will be before they require all their managers to have this????
Try and think with common sense. If if the college graduate took the job at McDonalds to hold him over until he finds a better job, he will eventually find one. The other guy at McDonald's is stuck there because he has no other real skills or qualifications.
Good post. Too many people focus on the initial salary but not the earnings potential. Sure you can find a 22 year old non-college graduate and college graduate who make say $40k per year. But which of those two will still be making 40k 5 years down the road?
Good post. Too many people focus on the initial salary but not the earnings potential. Sure you can find a 22 year old non-college graduate and college graduate who make say $40k per year. But which of those two will still be making 40k 5 years down the road?
If the non college graduate is intelligent - neither will - it is called a raise and then there are promotions.
It seems that we are talking about 2 different types of people here - there are those who will just sit around quietly with their annual raises (and that is fine) and then there are others who go after what they want and gain experience in the process. I'm not talking about a lazy employee - that is who is being described here - people who work at mcdonalds - if you work at micky d's at 30 there are way bigger issues. And if you have been a Gap jeans manager until you are 40 and then decide you would like to run for public office, then these are different issues - I am not talking abou these types of people, which in my head seems to be the people you guys are talking about.
Scenario
30 year old with 12 years experience in a field interviews for the same job another 30 year old with a bachelors is interviewing for, but he has 5 years experience.
Both are interviewed both have excellent back grounds but the one with the bachelors is a little socially awkward and doesn't interview well - who do you think gets the job?
I work next to a man that has a PHD, travelled the world as a jounalist and is brilliant, but people prefer to work with me. I have something he lacks, common sense, which as many of you know is not so common and it isn't something that really can be learned - you either have it or you don't.
Will this be the case every single time NO, but it is the case, in my experience, more often than not.
I didn't want to be the one to point it out, but there are plenty of people here who use bad grammar. Not knowing when to use then or than is outrageous to me. I once spoke with a 1st year attorney who actually told me that she conversated with people all the time - YES, it hurt my ears too. Repeating the word to me several times - and asked me "Chels, don't you ever conversate with strangers?" My response was "no, I never do that, I CONVERSE, but I don't conversate." Needless to say it went right over her head! Oh, and just to be clear, I am not speaking about incorrect use of commas or the like - this is understandable as we are all typing fast and often write the way we are speaking, but not knowing to use "an" instead of "a" - that is just bad english. No way to get around that!
If the non college graduate is intelligent - neither will - it is called a raise and then there are promotions.
It seems that we are talking about 2 different types of people here - there are those who will just sit around quietly with their annual raises (and that is fine) and then there are others who go after what they want and gain experience in the process. I'm not talking about a lazy employee - that is who is being described here - people who work at mcdonalds - if you work at micky d's at 30 there are way bigger issues. And if you have been a Gap jeans manager until you are 40 and then decide you would like to run for public office, then these are different issues - I am not talking abou these types of people, which in my head seems to be the people you guys are talking about.
Scenario
30 year old with 12 years experience in a field interviews for the same job another 30 year old with a bachelors is interviewing for, but he has 5 years experience.
Both are interviewed both have excellent back grounds but the one with the bachelors is a little socially awkward and doesn't interview well - who do you think gets the job?
I work next to a man that has a PHD, travelled the world as a jounalist and is brilliant, but people prefer to work with me. I have something he lacks, common sense, which as many of you know is not so common and it isn't something that really can be learned - you either have it or you don't.
Will this be the case every single time NO, but it is the case, in my experience, more often than not.
I didn't want to be the one to point it out, but there are plenty of people here who use bad grammar. Not knowing when to use then or than is outrageous to me. I once spoke with a 1st year attorney who actually told me that she conversated with people all the time - YES, it hurt my ears too. Repeating the word to me several times - and asked me "Chels, don't you ever conversate with strangers?" My response was "no, I never do that, I CONVERSE, but I don't conversate." Needless to say it went right over her head! Oh, and just to be clear, I am not speaking about incorrect use of commas or the like - this is understandable as we are all typing fast and often write the way we are speaking, but not knowing to use "an" instead of "a" - that is just bad english. No way to get around that!
I very much agree. That's not at all what I was getting at.
the people that move to miami are mainly from other countries and the average person in their 20's just stays a year or 2 for the experience and then moves out of there...most people wait tables or bartend for a year or so and do actually arrive with no job-and then get one right away or within a few months....it's about a thousand to live here a month for rent and all the young people do it this way or have roommates, etc...
people come here with no plan and move a year or 2 later...it's that kind of place. this is truly how it is. I am in grad school at FIU. I know who is here in South Beach and the majority are here for less than 2 years of time and just are happy with any job that lets them have the "miami" experience...
this person way over thought who is actually living here and broke it down all wrong...this is the place where many move from russia, italy, spain , etc and stay for 6 months to 2 years getting by as a waiter or whatever...then you leave! I hardly see people in their 20's that are here longer than a couple years! this is a transient life; not one that requires a high paying job or roots. The tourism industry ensures that you can wait tables or bartend or work a hotel job and stay as long as you'd like if your young with no family, etc.
i can't believe that person is really thinking all these people from other countries who make up the majority of south beach ( the spot where everyone lives or moves to ; aka the beach) is concerned with any of this.....they live here for 1 or 2 years and then return to nyc, spain or brazil, ect.....
Do some research and you will see that south beach (where you live if you want the miami experience; the water, the beach, etc) is filled with mainly young people; 55% from other countries and 80% speak spanish...33% are white (non-hispanic) who speak english first language.
this is not the place where people are deciding to find a great job and settle down...it's a temporary experience to cherish forever! It's a place for partying from 12am to 5am and hitting up the beach and waiting tables....
atleast thats what ive seen the young crowd in the 20's to early 30's do....but then they move on....this is temporary experience and most don't plan on staying here so they take whatever job they can get...
again im in my last year at FIU mastering in hotel management and i barely see the same people and there are sooooo many owner occupied units vacant or rented out; again, always by someone new who just arrived....it's hard to stay here to long especially if you like a larger city and one that isn't so latino culture oriented; and even if you are hispanic, this isn not a place where you live too long; relationships don't last, etc
Last edited by doggiebus; 07-05-2010 at 09:39 AM..
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