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I think you guys are possibly personalizing the argument and are reacting to things that I'm not saying.
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Originally Posted by Revol100
Please do allow me to "butt in" here:
Firstly, let me make it clear that I do not believe that college degrees are a waste of time. Obviously, they're not and they do open many doors. However, to dismiss someone without a degree is asinine. Some people are extremely intelligent, but not geared towards classroom learning, nor do they possess "book smarts". Does that make them stupid and only worthy of flipping burgers for the rest of their lives? NO! You simply cannot judge a person based on the fact that they don't have a degree. Some people make it just fine without a degree (believe it or not) and of course, some people don't.
Ah, maybe I'm just tired of people being so friggin' judgmental when it comes to others. College really isn't for everyone and a piece of paper does not guarantee you success. Again, I'm not saying that pursuing a degree is a waste of time, but there are many occasions when far too much emphasis is placed on those kind of credentials, rather than an individual's ability to do a job and do it well.
I am NOT judging anyone. You could be extremely smart and simply choose not to go to college. I don't see where I suggested that you are stupid just because you don't have a college degree. But regardless of how smart you really are you cant change the fact that a college degree is a REQUIRED QUALIFICATION for most jobs. So it doesn't matter how smart you actually are, without the degree you CANT get the job. I like to think that I'm a smart guy . If I told everyone here that I didn't have a high school diploma would that change the logic behind my arguments, no. Maybe I decided to educate myself and I was very successful. But that wouldn't change the fact that when I apply for a job they wont hire me without a diploma. Well in todays market place that diploma is being replaced with a college degree. I ask again, what jobs would an 18 year old with no college degree be qualified for???
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Originally Posted by Chelsa1075
Guys - I won't speak for her - but my take on this is generally people do get promoted within with or without degrees and truthfully speaking I have never met anyone right out of college who took a management position. Experience 90% of the time is needed for management positions. That is all we are trying to say - I don't want to discourage anyone from getting degrees, that isn't the point of this at all - please don't misunderstand.
Chelsa, I'm not making that argument. I agree that someone out of college cannot get a management position. What I'm saying is that today most entry level positions that lead to management positions require a college degree. Without a degree you cant even get your foot in the door to get the experience. I mean seriously if you need a degree at Burger King and Enterprise what types of jobs are you going to work without one?
Here is a link the Occupation Outlook Handbook, published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics every year.
Every occupation is listed there. They talk about the nature of the job, the qualifications, earnings, projections, etc. Please look through at the different occupations and try and find one with decent earnings that doesn't require a degree.
Here is a quote from the Human Resources, Training, and Labor Managers:
"The educational backgrounds of human resources, training, and labor relations managers and specialists vary considerably, reflecting the diversity of duties and levels of responsibility. In filling entry-level jobs, many employers seek college graduates who have majored in human resources, human resources administration, or industrial and labor relations. Other employers look for college graduates with a technical or business background or a well-rounded liberal arts education."
I'm really having a hard time understanding the opposition to this argument especially from Princ3Ss. Before she was arguing that Miami has no jobs and the only way to get a decent jobs was to get a degree and work in healthcare. But now your telling me that you can graduate high school skip college and somehow work your way up to a good management position.
I mean doesn't this seem odd that you have people complaining about $20k jobs but when you tell them the average college graduate in Miami makes $45k and they tell you they don't need a degree????
I'm NOT saying you are not smart because you don't have a degree. I'm NOT writing you off just because you don't have a degree. I'm saying that you don't meet the REQUIRED QUALIFICATIONS for even most entry level jobs if you do not have a degree. If you disagree then please post positions that someone with no experience and no degree would be qualified for in Miami.
Gixx - I was throwing that at the other guy who said you can get a management position out of college - I know what your saying - it is hard to tell someones tone, sentiment and wave length through writing. I do understand - is it better to have school yes, but does it cripple you if you don't not always. However the chances of an idiot getting a job with a degree are higher than a person who doesn't have a degree. The only thing I say is that if a person is smart and driven they will succeed - I (not me specifically) may have had to start at a lower pay but I will end up at higher rate because even without schooling employers do stress performance and once you are in the door and can show what you can do all you need is one mover and shaker to be on your side and there is your in. As I said before - this is not a suggestion to anyone to stay out of school - go please go!
I'm really having a hard time understanding the opposition to this argument especially from Princ3Ss. Before she was arguing that Miami has no jobs and the only way to get a decent jobs was to get a degree and work in healthcare. But now your telling me that you can graduate high school skip college and somehow work your way up to a good management position.
I mean doesn't this seem odd that you have people complaining about $20k jobs but when you tell them the average college graduate in Miami makes $45k and they tell you they don't need a degree????
I never said there were not jobs, just very limited in certain industries. We are talking specifically about management careers here. I already told you what I have observed in real life. I don't need to look up any statistics because I know plenty of people in this field. Of course an intelligent individual would not take my words for facts, but maybe they will try to meet real life managers and asked them if they have a degree. If they do, then ask them if they really needed it in the first place or if they would have still gotten the position without one. Chances are they didn't need it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxer1000
I'm NOT saying you are not smart because you don't have a degree. I'm NOT writing you off just because you don't have a degree. I'm saying that you don't meet the REQUIRED QUALIFICATIONS for even most entry level jobs if you do not have a degree. If you disagree then please post positions that someone with no experience and no degree would be qualified for in Miami.
I agree, you never made that statement. The college degree however will not make you more qualified for an entry level management position than a good internal employee. If I'm the hiring manager why would I take any chances when I can test you and train you on the job? I already know who is more qualified within my employees. A stranger from the street without any experience, I have no idea what I'm getting into. What you see posted online, many times is not what they are looking for, especially when it comes to higher education and entry level management positions.
I do understand - is it better to have school yes, but does it cripple you if you don't not always. However the chances of an idiot getting a job with a degree are higher than a person who doesn't have a degree. The only thing I say is that if a person is smart and driven they will succeed
I think were probably closer than we think on this. I just think that since maybe you and Princ3Ss are farther removed from the entry level job market today you may be speaking from your experiences from years ago and not current trends. Again what decent job are you going to be able to obtain today with no experience and no degree. Food prep and serving jobs, building cleaning and grounds maintenance, barbers, cosmetologist, etc. These jobs offer little pay with little room for advancement or gaining experience.
Salaries for people without a degree are DECREASING. So that may not mean much to someone who started years ago and already has earned valuable experience. But to someone starting today you simply cannot compete without a degree. Would you have been able to achieve what you have without a high school diploma? Well a college degree means just as much today to someone entering the job market as your high school diploma meant to you.
Maybe the difference is that we have a different ideal of succeeding. Can you work hard and get a job paying $12 an hour without a college degree, yes. But so many people here are complaining about jobs that pay $25k a year and that's all a $12 an hour job is. And without further education these jobs don't lead to better ones.
I never said there were not jobs, just very limited in certain industries. We are talking specifically about management careers here. I already told you what I have observed in real life. I don't need to look up any statistics because I know plenty of people in this field. Of course an intelligent individual would not take my words for facts, but maybe they will try to meet real life managers and asked them if they have a degree. If they do, then ask them if they really needed it in the first place or if they would have still gotten the position without one. Chances are they didn't need it.
I've never met a professional that said chances are they could have been just as successful without a degree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ♥♥PRINC3Ss♥♥
I agree, you never made that statement. The college degree however will not make you more qualified for an entry level management position than a good internal employee. If I'm the hiring manager why would I take any chances when I can test you and train you on the job? I already know who is more qualified within my employees. A stranger from the street without any experience, I have no idea what I'm getting into. What you see posted online, many times is not what they are looking for, especially when it comes to higher education and entry level management positions.
Again you are making a different argument. I'm not saying that a degree will make an outside employee more qualified than an internal employee. What I'm saying is that in today's climate you need a degree to even become that internal employee. Again, what companies hire people without a college degree??????
Example. A dental assistant is a job that you can get without a college degree. This job falls into the health support occupation and in Miami the average salary is $25,070. Here is some information about this job:
"Many assistants learn their skills on the job, although an increasing number are trained in dental-assisting programs offered by community and junior colleges, trade schools, technical institutes, or the Armed Forces. Most programs take 1 year to complete. For assistants to perform more advanced functions, or to have the ability to complete radiological procedures, many States require assistants to obtain a license or certification.
Two-year programs offered in community and junior colleges lead to an associate degree. All programs require a high school diploma or its equivalent, and some require science or computer-related courses for admission. A number of private vocational schools offer 4- to 6-month courses in dental assisting, but the Commission on Dental Accreditation does not accredit these programs.
Certification and advancement. Without further education, advancement opportunities are limited."
So here is a job that you can get with no college degree. But you're probably going to have attend some sort of program at place a lot like school for 1 year to compete. Added to the fact that you have to compete with other people who have obtained associates degrees and are already trained. If you were a dentist who would you rather hire, someone who says they'll work hard and learn fast or someone who has proven they'll work hard and learn fast by already obtaining a degree or certification. And then all of this just to make $25k after years. And then add in the fact that without further education, advancement opportunities are limited.
Can you still succeed yes. Is the average person going to enter this field and without schooling make more than the average? Probably not. So if you consider a $25k job a good job then you're right, you can probably do this without a college degree. But most people here complain that a $25k job is not a good job in Miami.
Again, what companies hire people without a college degree??????
So if you consider a $25k job a good job then you're right, you can probably do this without a college degree. But most people here complain that a $25k job is not a good job in Miami.
No $25k is not enough but everybody has to start somewhere if they don't have any experience. Many people who make that here live at home or w/ roommates. Dental assistance? Obviously you need some kind of technical training to work with people's mouths. You just chose the worst example. Here's a hint, everything in green is attainable without a college degree and they all have managers. They don't work by themselves. Secretaries may or may not need some certification so I put a different color
No $25k is not enough but everybody has to start somewhere if they don't have any experience. Many people who make that here live at home or w/ roommates. Dental assistance? Obviously you need some kind of technical training to work with people's mouths. You just chose the worst example. Here's a hint, everything in green is attainable without a college degree and they all have managers. They don't work by themselves. Secretaries may or may not need some certification so I put a different color
Princ3Ss, I see now were are on completely different pages. In another thread I posted a like to a place that did a study on the minimum amount of money that you would need to survive in different areas. Here is the link:
I remember Chelsa remarking about how hard it would actually be to live off of this. With the salaries you posted a single person would not be able to support themselves. OK so they can live with a roommate. Why not live with a roommate while you go to school so you wont be stuck in these jobs your whole life. You say that you have to start somewhere but the problem is that those aren't even starting salaries, those are average salaries of all people in the occupation. So that is what you can expect after working the job for several years.
Also, here is an excerpt from the customer service representative that you highlighted:
Education and training. Most customer service representative jobs require a high school diploma. However, because employers are demanding a more skilled workforce, some customer service jobs now require associate or bachelor's degrees. High school and college level courses in computers, English, or business are helpful in preparing for a job in customer service.
And most these jobs do not lead to management positions without further education.
For example here is the advancement description for a retail salesperson:
"Advancement. Opportunities for advancement vary. In some small establishments, advancement is limited because one person—often the owner—does most of the managerial work. In others, some salespersons can be promoted to assistant manager. Large retail businesses usually prefer to hire college graduates as management trainees, making a college education increasingly important. However, motivated and capable employees without college degrees still may advance to administrative or supervisory positions in large establishments."
So basically the highest you can really expect to go is an assistant manager. And that is working your way up. So you start at the bottom, making little pay while working your way up to be an assistant manager and after all those years of hard work the company prefers hiring college graduates as management trainees. My fiance used to work as a General Manager at a retail store before we moved to DC. She was 24 and worked there after high school and through college so she had 6 years of experience and a degree (only an associates) Most of the other managers at other stores were all about 40 and worked there for 20 years. In retail they constantly hire and fire people based on sales figures so people would come and go between her company and competitors. But all they had was years of retail experience and no degree so they had no other options. That really has to suck when you work your whole life in a profession and you get replaced by a 24 year old.
When the average college graduate makes more than every occupation you highlighted why would you intentionally go into these professions and not simply go to school? In every other thread I hear someone telling me that Miami jobs only pay $20-$25k. From your list it looks like what these jobs pay everywhere in America and the problem isn't with Miami it the actual professions that people choose to work in. If you have to start out as a waitress, retail salesperson, etc. no problem. But if you want to get paid more your going to need to get the qualifications to do so.
princ3ss, i see now were are on completely different pages. In another thread i posted a like to a place that did a study on the minimum amount of money that you would need to survive in different areas. Here is the link:
i remember chelsa remarking about how hard it would actually be to live off of this. With the salaries you posted a single person would not be able to support themselves. Ok so they can live with a roommate. Why not live with a roommate while you go to school so you wont be stuck in these jobs your whole life. You say that you have to start somewhere but the problem is that those aren't even starting salaries, those are average salaries of all people in the occupation. So that is what you can expect after working the job for several years.
Also, here is an excerpt from the customer service representative that you highlighted:
education and training. Most customer service representative jobs require a high school diploma. however, because employers are demanding a more skilled workforce, some customer service jobs now require associate or bachelor's degrees. high school and college level courses in computers, english, or business are helpful in preparing for a job in customer service.
and most these jobs do not lead to management positions without further education.
for example here is the advancement description for a retail salesperson:
"advancement. Opportunities for advancement vary. In some small establishments, advancement is limited because one person—often the owner—does most of the managerial work. In others, some salespersons can be promoted to assistant manager. large retail businesses usually prefer to hire college graduates as management trainees, making a college education increasingly important. however, motivated and capable employees without college degrees still may advance to administrative or supervisory positions in large establishments."
so basically the highest you can really expect to go is an assistant manager. And that is working your way up. So you start at the bottom, making little pay while working your way up to be an assistant manager and after all those years of hard work the company prefers hiring college graduates as management trainees. My fiance used to work as a general manager at a retail store before we moved to dc. She was 24 and worked there after high school and through college so she had 6 years of experience and a degree (only an associates) most of the other managers at other stores were all about 40 and worked there for 20 years. In retail they constantly hire and fire people based on sales figures so people would come and go between her company and competitors. But all they had was years of retail experience and no degree so they had no other options. That really has to suck when you work your whole life in a profession and you get replaced by a 24 year old.
When the average college graduate makes more than every occupation you highlighted why would you intentionally go into these professions and not simply go to school? In every other thread i hear someone telling me that miami jobs only pay $20-$25k. From your list it looks like what these jobs pay everywhere in america and the problem isn't with miami it the actual professions that people choose to work in. If you have to start out as a waitress, retail salesperson, etc. No problem. But if you want to get paid more your going to need to get the qualifications to do so.
Agreed - Thomas - I think you are correct - I was actually talking to someone today about this - they referred to my husband as a professional - I had never really thought of him that way but she was very clear when pointing out that what he does (pipe fitter) is a profession - a random person could not walk off the street and say hey I'd like to fix this and just do it - there is a lot more to it than I realy thought. Makes me hold him in a little higher regard - he wasn't a school guy he loves to work with his hands. Nice to know he will be respected and not just thought of as a day worker!
I think were probably closer than we think on this. I just think that since maybe you and Princ3Ss are farther removed from the entry level job market today you may be speaking from your experiences from years ago and not current trends. Again what decent job are you going to be able to obtain today with no experience and no degree. Food prep and serving jobs, building cleaning and grounds maintenance, barbers, cosmetologist, etc. These jobs offer little pay with little room for advancement or gaining experience.
Salaries for people without a degree are DECREASING. So that may not mean much to someone who started years ago and already has earned valuable experience. But to someone starting today you simply cannot compete without a degree. Would you have been able to achieve what you have without a high school diploma? Well a college degree means just as much today to someone entering the job market as your high school diploma meant to you.
Maybe the difference is that we have a different ideal of succeeding. Can you work hard and get a job paying $12 an hour without a college degree, yes. But so many people here are complaining about jobs that pay $25k a year and that's all a $12 an hour job is. And without further education these jobs don't lead to better ones.
I totally agree. I am in my mid 20s and it is hard for someone to find a good career without any kind of technical training, associate degree or a bachelors. When you guys was in the workforce it was different. You could work your way up into a very good management position. Now, like gixxer1000 said, they have management trainee programs for people who recently graduated from college if thats the career path they want to go.
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. If I told everyone here that I didn't have a high school diploma would that change the logic behind my arguments, no. Maybe I decided to educate myself and I was very successful. But that wouldn't change the fact that when I apply for a job they wont hire me without a diploma. Well in todays market place that diploma is being replaced with a college degree. I ask again, what jobs would an 18 year old with no college degree be qualified for??? 
