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I think you guys are really missing the point. In TODAY's America take someone who is 18 and just graduated high school. Where are they going to work and make a decent salary with JUST a high school diploma. What company are they going to work at that will allow them to work their way up to the top?
Chelsa, I applaud you for your drive and effort. But even in your own situation you cannot become a paralegal or legal assistant without an associates degree today. How many companies today train paralegals on the job with no education. Especially in today's climate where they would have to compete with out of work people with associates degrees. Besides an associates degree IS a college degree.
Average salary from 2003 U.S. Census
High school diploma $37,620
Associates Degree $51,934
Also in the lastest years of data the salaries for high school graduates are decreasing while the salaries for graduates with associate degree, bachelor degree, etc. is increasing.
I currently work in construction management and I'm transitioning into real estate development. 15 years ago you could have worked your way up from foreman to superintendent to project manager. This is no longer an option. Now the route to project manager is college to project engineer to project manager. As the field becomes more technical so do the requirements. We have vice presidents at our company that started as carpenters, but no carpenter today has a real shot at ever being a vice president 30 years in the future.
For someone who started their career 15, 20 years ago and has already proven themselves and acquired many skills on the job they CAN still compete in today's workforce. But someone starting out today, they have no real shot at doing anything without a degree. Which is why you say your boys have to go to college.
I think this is the perspective that you and Princ3Ss are coming from. Looking at her list the only career that you can START today without any college is in sales.
Management: Where are you going to get a job without a college degree that will allow you to work your way up. Night shift manager at Burger King doesn't count. These jobs made an average of over $100k in Miami. Go to any decent company in Miami and look at their managers and ALL the young ones have degrees.
Health care:Associates degrees are college degrees. I also started out with an associates degree.
Software development: Requires a lot of rigorous certification programs that cost just as much as college. This should be included with other vocational programs like studying to become an A/C repair technician. Technically not college but just as expensive and ofter taught at colleges.
Sales: I agree, but changing. For example I'm running into more Realtor's that have degrees.
Starting a business with a GED: Again possible but not probable. If one out of 100 people succeed you can say its possible but would you want to bet your future on a 1% chance.
I don't want to use your boys because that's too personal. Take the average person who just graduated high school who is motivated and hard working. Where are they going to work at in Miami today that will allow them to transition into a career into the future?
I think you guys are really missing the point. In TODAY's America take someone who is 18 and just graduated high school. Where are they going to work and make a decent salary with JUST a high school diploma. What company are they going to work at that will allow them to work their way up to the top?
Chelsa, I applaud you for your drive and effort. But even in your own situation you cannot become a paralegal or legal assistant without an associates degree today. How many companies today train paralegals on the job with no education. Especially in today's climate where they would have to compete with out of work people with associates degrees. Besides an associates degree IS a college degree.
Average salary from 2003 U.S. Census
High school diploma $37,620
Associates Degree $51,934
Also in the lastest years of data the salaries for high school graduates are decreasing while the salaries for graduates with associate degree, bachelor degree, etc. is increasing.
I currently work in construction management and I'm transitioning into real estate development. 15 years ago you could have worked your way up from foreman to superintendent to project manager. This is no longer an option. Now the route to project manager is college to project engineer to project manager. As the field becomes more technical so do the requirements. We have vice presidents at our company that started as carpenters, but no carpenter today has a real shot at ever being a vice president 30 years in the future.
For someone who started their career 15, 20 years ago and has already proven themselves and acquired many skills on the job they CAN still compete in today's workforce. But someone starting out today, they have no real shot at doing anything without a degree. Which is why you say your boys have to go to college.
I think this is the perspective that you and Princ3Ss are coming from. Looking at her list the only career that you can START today without any college is in sales.
Management: Where are you going to get a job without a college degree that will allow you to work your way up. Night shift manager at Burger King doesn't count. These jobs made an average of over $100k in Miami. Go to any decent company in Miami and look at their managers and ALL the young ones have degrees.
Health care:Associates degrees are college degrees. I also started out with an associates degree.
Software development: Requires a lot of rigorous certification programs that cost just as much as college. This should be included with other vocational programs like studying to become an A/C repair technician. Technically not college but just as expensive and ofter taught at colleges.
Sales: I agree, but changing. For example I'm running into more Realtor's that have degrees.
Starting a business with a GED: Again possible but not probable. If one out of 100 people succeed you can say its possible but would you want to bet your future on a 1% chance.
I don't want to use your boys because that's too personal. Take the average person who just graduated high school who is motivated and hard working. Where are they going to work at in Miami today that will allow them to transition into a career into the future?
Gixx, I'm glad you wrote this because, you are right and I can't argue this! More often than not people will want degrees versus not having one. I'm fortunate that I have been able to get to where I am and make the salary I am - I still want more, but I do know that I don't want to give more of my time, so, it is a trade off. While I will probably/hopefully always make the most at what I do, I will never make the house in the bahamas money, but I'll do ok. And for me that is good enough considering my circumstances, my children right now are more important than the 6 figure salary. But as I mentioned before that was a decision I made early on - I mean imagine how pissed I'd be if I couldn't get a legal assistant position simply because I had a law degree and really wanted to have better hours for my boys. Which seems to be the case in florida to many over qualified people wanting regular jobs.
All this to say - please all of you who can, continue to get your degrees in anything you can, because simply, they do not hurt you!
Management: Where are you going to get a job without a college degree that will allow you to work your way up. Night shift manager at Burger King doesn't count. These jobs made an average of over $100k in Miami. Go to any decent company in Miami and look at their managers and ALL the young ones have degrees.
Really? Tell me how do you know that when you don't even live here? And no I'm not talking about BK or an Enterprise Rent a car entry level management position.
Really? Tell me how do you know that when you don't even live here? And no I'm not talking about BK or an Enterprise Rent a car entry level management position.
Princ3Ss,
They have this thing called the internet and cellphones . In all seriousness here is a link to the fastest growing companies in the area in 2008:
There is probably a million other places that will tell you what companies do business in Miami. Now that you have a list of companies that do business there go to their website. Most websites will have a section for the management team. Click on that and it will provide a brief bio of each person on the management team including their qualifications. In every company I have every checked every single person with less than 10 years experience has at least a bachelors degree and most have more. I did run into a few people that had insurance certifications for example but they also had 20+ years of experience.
Next go to the careers section and look up job opportunities at that company. Even if they don't have a position open they usually have a description of their typical jobs. All these jobs indicated a bachelors degree as a REQUIRED qualification.
Funny enough I went to Burger King because it is actually one of the Fortune 500 companies located in Miami. To be a Restaurant Manager it says that a high school diploma is required and an associates degree is preferred. Then when you look at the corporate positions they all require a bachelors degree. Do you really want to work you entire life just to get a crappy restaurant management position that pays $37k and possibly get beat out by some kid that's 10 years younger and has a degree?
So next I decided to look at Enterprise and this is what I found as the qualifications for a management trainee in Miami:
A bachelors degree is required and previous experience in sales, customer service and management is preferred.
Must be at least 18 years old.
Must have a valid driver's license with no more than 2 moving violations in the last 3 years.
No alcohol or drug related conviction on driving record in the last 5 years.
Must be eligible to work in the US and not require sponsorship now or in the future.
Must have a flexible work schedule to accommodate nights and weekends.
And here is a description:
Regardless of college major or professional experience, nearly 100% of our full-time employees start out in our Management Training Program. This allows everyone to learn our business from the ground up and understand how they play a significant role in seeing it succeed.
So nearly 100% start out in a position that requires a bachelors degree even though they're starting at the bottom to learn from "the ground up".
Princ3Ss I understand that you live in Miami and know the city better than me. But the job landscape has changed everywhere in America. Even the jobs that you need to get in order to work your way up require a degree.
team. Click on that and it will provide a brief bio of each person on the management team including their qualifications. In every company I have every checked every single person with less than 10 years experience has at least a bachelors degree and most have more. I did run into a few people that had insurance certifications for example but they also had 20+ years of experience.
Are we talking about Managers or CEOs? Management is usually not posted on the web. For CEO positions they usually hire people with Law degrees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxer1000
All these jobs indicated a bachelors degree as a REQUIRED qualification.
Princ3Ss I understand that you live in Miami and know the city better than me. But the job landscape has changed everywhere in America. Even the jobs that you need to get in order to work your way up require a degree.
Those positions on the web mean nothing. You obviously have no experience in the management field. Most companies will never hire someone from outside for a managemet position. It's a slap in the face for all of those who are waiting for a promotion. In fact most of the time the higher ups already who is gonna get the job even before the position is posted. If they hire from outside, they usually make sure that person leaves. It is what it is.
Many companies in many sectors. I'm not gonna name any in specific.
Just ask around. By the way A degree does not equal experience. Many people get promoted from inside. It's a great motivational tool.
Im sorry I was understanding both sides of the argument until this statement was made... I am under 30 years old with a bachelors degree and working on a MBA. I do live in South Florida. It is impossible for someone right out of high school or even 3 to 5 years remove from high that can up and get a career in management(shift manager at Miami Subs do not count) in Miami. Heck probably it will be hard no matter what city you are in. If it was possible, I think a lot of people probably would skip college and go into management. I know I would. If you can not show any proof that someone that is young without any kind of degrees (including associate degree) can get a good career in the management field, then your debate is null and void.
Are we talking about Managers or CEOs? Management is usually not posted on the web. For CEO positions they usually hire people with Law degrees.
Those positions on the web mean nothing. You obviously have no experience in the management field. Most companies will never hire someone from outside for a managemet position. It's a slap in the face for all of those who are waiting for a promotion. In fact most of the time the higher ups already who is gonna get the job even before the position is posted. If they hire from outside, they usually make sure that person leaves. It is what it is.
I'm done with this. We are going in circles here.
Sure it may be a slap in the face to some, doesn't mean it doesn't happen though. And if someone is bitter about being beaten out by a more qualified person, well, I don't know what to tell them. Under your logic one would have to stay with one company their whole careers to move up. That was how things were many years ago, but no longer.
Guys - I won't speak for her - but my take on this is generally people do get promoted within with or without degrees and truthfully speaking I have never met anyone right out of college who took a management position. Experience 90% of the time is needed for management positions. That is all we are trying to say - I don't want to discourage anyone from getting degrees, that isn't the point of this at all - please don't misunderstand.
Firstly, let me make it clear that I do not believe that college degrees are a waste of time. Obviously, they're not and they do open many doors. However, to dismiss someone without a degree is asinine. Some people are extremely intelligent, but not geared towards classroom learning, nor do they possess "book smarts". Does that make them stupid and only worthy of flipping burgers for the rest of their lives? NO! You simply cannot judge a person based on the fact that they don't have a degree. Some people make it just fine without a degree (believe it or not) and of course, some people don't.
Ah, maybe I'm just tired of people being so friggin' judgmental when it comes to others. College really isn't for everyone and a piece of paper does not guarantee you success. Again, I'm not saying that pursuing a degree is a waste of time, but there are many occasions when far too much emphasis is placed on those kind of credentials, rather than an individual's ability to do a job and do it well.
Firstly, let me make it clear that I do not believe that college degrees are a waste of time. Obviously, they're not and they do open many doors. However, to dismiss someone without a degree is asinine. Some people are extremely intelligent, but not geared towards classroom learning, nor do they possess "book smarts". Does that make them stupid and only worthy of flipping burgers for the rest of their lives? NO! You simply cannot judge a person based on the fact that they don't have a degree. Some people make it just fine without a degree (believe it or not) and of course, some people don't.
Ah, maybe I'm just tired of people being so friggin' judgmental when it comes to others. College really isn't for everyone and a piece of paper does not guarantee you success. Again, I'm not saying that pursuing a degree is a waste of time, but there are many occasions when far too much emphasis is placed on those kind of credentials, rather than an individual's ability to do a job and do it well.
Good post - you said exactly what princess and I were thinking!
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. In all seriousness here is a link to the fastest growing companies in the area in 2008:
