[edsg25]

the very top rung of public universities in the US consists of the rarified air only four schools: Cal, UCLA, UVa, and U-M; arguably no other institution is in their category.

So the state of Michigan has an elite status among the states based on the presence of the University of Michigan.

Yet, IMHO, what makes Michigan truly remarkable is that it has two flagship public universities and they are both stellar institutions, among the best public schools in the nation. Both U-M and MSU are among the top 30 public universities for USN&WR.

In comparison to the state of Michigan, my state of Illinois has only one flagship public university, UIUC, and other surrounding states like Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Ohio only have one each as well. Yet Michigan offers two....one them an absolute elite, the other still among the best in public universities.

The University of Michigan, by its status, has the ability to suck all the oxygen out of the air which, if true, would be a shame as IMHO what makes Michigan so incredible in public education among the states is that it has that blockbuster duo of U-M and MSU.

Am I right in my observations or am I off base?

[mjlo]

Originally Posted by edsg25

the very top rung of public universities in the US consists of the rarified air only four schools: Cal, UCLA, UVa, and U-M; arguably no other institution is in their category.

So the state of Michigan has an elite status among the states based on the presence of the University of Michigan.

Yet, IMHO, what makes Michigan truly remarkable is that it has two flagship public universities and they are both stellar institutions, among the best public schools in the nation. Both U-M and MSU are among the top 30 public universities for USN&WR.

In comparison to the state of Michigan, my state of Illinois has only one flagship public university, UIUC, and other surrounding states like Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Ohio only have one each as well. Yet Michigan offers two....one them an absolute elite, the other still among the best in public universities.

The University of Michigan, by its status, has the ability to suck all the oxygen out of the air which, if true, would be a shame as IMHO what makes Michigan so incredible in public education among the states is that it has that blockbuster duo of U-M and MSU.

Am I right in my observations or am I off base?

I understand the distinction that you're making, but i'm not sure that it puts MI in a unique position. Especially when you consider it's size. It's true that both MN and WI have only one real elite flagship university. However they both have about 40% less in population than Michigan does which is notable in this discussion.

The other part I would point out is about flagship private universities, Michigan has none. In contrast Illinois has both Northwestern and U of Chicago which outflank the Illini in elite status, and certainly suck a little wind and glory from it's position in the state, and nationally. California has UCLA, and Cal, but again it has Stanford, and USC which are top tier elite as well. Not to mention there are a couple other branches within the U-Cal system which are also considered pretty heavy hitters. Although in fairness given that CA makes up 2/3rds of the western seaboard it could really be considered 3 or 4 states.

I do think both Michigan and MSU do help the state stand out in higher education. Given Michigan's historical position as an economic giant, one could argue that Michigan is underserved by elite universities. As it was one of the wealthiest states in the US as higher education was emerging in this country.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by mjlo

I understand the distinction that you're making, but i'm not sure that it puts MI in a unique position. Especially when you consider it's size. It's true that both MN and WI have only one real elite flagship university. However they both have about 40% less in population than Michigan does which is notable in this discussion.

The other part I would point out is about flagship private universities, Michigan has none. In contrast Illinois has both Northwestern and U of Chicago which outflank the Illini in elite status, and certainly suck a little wind and glory from it's position in the state, and nationally. California has UCLA, and Cal, but again it has Stanford, and USC which are top tier elite as well. Not to mention there are a couple other branches within the U-Cal system which are also considered pretty heavy hitters. Although in fairness given that CA makes up 2/3rds of the western seaboard it could really be considered 3 or 4 states.

I do think both Michigan and MSU do help the state stand out in higher education. Given Michigan's historical position as an economic giant, one could argue that Michigan is underserved by elite universities. As it was one of the wealthiest states in the US as higher education was emerging in this country.

of course i agree with you, mjio, but i was comparing states as to what they do with their own higher education system.

The UC system, as you note, goes far beyond Cal and UCLA and nobody is going to argue that UC Davis, UCSB,and UCSD are among the nation's top public universities. But, then again, California is a world unto its own. Michigan still comes out towards the top of the list when comparing with all the other states.

[TheProf]

Mjlo is dead on, the presence of both MSU and U-M have sucked the air out of Michigan in terms of private universities. While the state has a number of quality LACs, with Kalamazoo being the most noteworthy, there's no private general research university of any major standing. The best private university is Kettering, but it is narrow focused as a(n) (very good) engineering school originally founded by GM to train engineers and managers for the company in the early 1900s. Next is probably U-D, which is way down the prestige ladder.

The presence of these mega world public universities has impacted Michigan in other ways, too. It's been noted that Detroit never founded a natural history museum because of those in Ann Arbor and East Lansing.

Illinois is a rather odd fish and different than Michigan despite not being terribly different in total geographic size and population. Michigan's core population base lies in southeast and south central Michigan with Detroit on one end and Lansing on the other -- a space of about 85 miles (with MSU and U-M about 60 miles apart). It makes Michigan seem smaller than what it is; almost like a gigantic "town" -- it strikes me as odd that many people in Lansing and East Lansing relate to Detroit almost as if they were Motown suburbs (particularly when it comes to rooting for Detroit teams). In Illinois, however, Metro Chicago -- a huge 7 million-person chunk -- is it's own city-state, with the rest of Illinois being a whole separate state... UI, in Champaign-Urbana some 140 miles south in the middle of cornfields, is out of sight/out of mind per Chicagoans and is always termed "downstate" as if it were if it were Illinana or Missorinois or something. Hence Chicago is unaffected by the in-state presence of a major world public university like UI, in the Chicago bubble, only homegrown UC and NU matter; their 2 Ivy-caliber world-class, private research universities -- Chicago has 2 while Detroit has none.

... but try telling this to Chicago parents trying to save a buck on in-state tuition at Illinois' high-powered public university-- that "downstate" stuff tends to disappear to them.

As you have noted, Edge, MSU especially has historically served as kind of a backstop for Chicago area kids who can't squeeze into the limited slots of U. Illinois. It's not an accident that, not only is one of MSU's largest non-Michigan alumni bases in Chicago, the University and the local alumni heavily recruit in Chicagoland.

[Coldjensens]

I have seen this said about Michigan in national publications several times. For our population, having two internationally recognized universities is unparalleled. You cannot compare California with over 38 million people (over 1/10 of the US population) to Michigan which has less than 10 million people. To compare, California would need to have eight universities of such stature.

In addition to our two big shots, we have lots of outstanding universities at the next tier (Grand Valley, U-M Dearborn, Eastern - for some subjects) Wayne State - for some subjects, Lawrence, Michigan Institute of technology, Michigan tech, K College, Hillsdale, OU, I am certainly missing some). Despite generally low selectivity and rankings, Wayne State is a top notch University in several area and also qualifies as a research university I believe. Eastern is the largest teaching college in the US. Grand Valley is probably one of the fastest rising school in rankings because a handful of near bilionaires on the West side of the state are determined to make it the equal of Michigan. Then when you take another step down you have another dozen that are still reasonably respectable. We also have a lot fo excellent Community Colleges.

[TheProf]

^Indeed; Lansing Community College and WC3 are 2 of the best CCs in the nation.

[ram2]

Originally Posted by mjlo

.

The other part I would point out is about flagship private universities, Michigan has none. In contrast Illinois has both Northwestern and U of Chicago which outflank the Illini in elite status, and certainly suck a little wind and glory from it's position in the state, and nationally. California has UCLA, and Cal, but again it has Stanford, and USC which are top tier elite as well. Not to mention there are a couple other branches within the U-Cal system which are also considered pretty heavy hitters. Although in fairness given that CA makes up 2/3rds of the western seaboard it could really be considered 3 or 4 states.

And Ohio has Case-Western U.

[ram2]

Originally Posted by TheProf

.

Illinois is a rather odd fish and different than Michigan despite not being terribly different in total geographic size and population. Michigan's core population base lies in southeast and south central Michigan with Detroit on one end and Lansing on the other -- a space of about 85 miles (with MSU and U-M about 60 miles apart). It makes Michigan seem smaller than what it is; almost like a gigantic "town" -- it strikes me as odd that many people in Lansing and East Lansing relate to Detroit almost as if they were Motown suburbs (particularly when it comes to rooting for Detroit teams). In Illinois, however, Metro Chicago -- a huge 7 million-person chunk -- is it's own city-state, with the rest of Illinois being a whole separate state... UI, in Champaign-Urbana some 140 miles south in the middle of cornfields, is out of sight/out of mind per Chicagoans and is always termed "downstate" as if it were if it were Illinana or Missorinois or something. Hence Chicago is unaffected by the in-state presence of a major world public university like UI, in the Chicago bubble, only homegrown UC and NU matter; their 2 Ivy-caliber world-class, private research universities -- Chicago has 2 while Detroit has none.

... but try telling this to Chicago parents trying to save a buck on in-state tuition at Illinois' high-powered public university-- that "downstate" stuff tends to disappear to them.

.

What about University of Illinois at Chicago ?

[Coldjensens]

Originally Posted by ram2

And Ohio has Case-Western U.

Pretty sure Case-Western is about on par with Wayne State.

[brodie734]

The problem, as such, would be that budget cuts have kind of changed the game in terms of Michigan's big 2 universities. U-M is undergoing a kind of privatization by stealth, continually attracting and accepting more and more students from out of state (enabled by the Common Application platform) in order to make up the shortfalls from the minuscule amount of state funding the school receives. This has a knock on effect: a lot of kids who would have gone to Michigan in previous generations end up at MSU (though a lot seem to end up at UM-Dearborn, too, with a view to transfer) which then pushes a lot of people who would have gone to MSU to the aforementioned lower tier schools. To some degree this raises all boats, but it also means that a lot of kids coming out of U-M and MSU are upwardly mobile types ready to head out into the world and that a lot of those looking to stay in Michigan went to the smaller schools.