How much HP and torque do Harley's make? (speeding, lease, motor)
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HD builds to reliability. There is no other aircooled bike in the world that can take what an HD lump can in extreme conditions, like idling for a long time on the side of the road or traffic jams, etc. Thats why a lot of Police Departments use them. My FXST could chug around town at walking speed in third gear, makes it very easy to ride without shifting all the time. My 883 Sportster on the other hand, would get 'beaten' by a Burgman 400 up until 90, but the HP on the average Sportster is matched well for the bias belt tires and single disc front brake that come stock.
I'm sorry, but your analysis of HD in the Police Department world is completely off base.
As one who had a lot of contact with the sales of competing bikes to this marketplace, I'm well familiar with the shortcomings on HD in this service.
To begin with, your private use of the bike doesn't match up with the weight load and electrical demands, nor longevity expected in Police service.
For example, the HD alternators of the carbureted bikes were woefully inadequate to keep up with extended idling or slow speed parade work. It wasn't uncommon for HD's in this area to have the ignition system shut down while plonking along at parade walking speeds due to the battery going dead with all the flashing lights and communications gear loads.
As well, the longevity of the Evo engines was pretty limited before major work was required. I won't go into all the details here, but suffice to say that most HD's were worn out by 50,000 miles and their economic service life was over. I've seen the records of over 100 police departments and CA HP use, and most HD's struggled to reach 50,000 miles before being retired. These were expensive bikes to use, with costs exceeding 50 cents per mile, all the way back into the 1970's. Costs included acquisition, maintenance, fuel, consumables, break-down repairs, and depreciated value that they could capture on the bike disposal sale.
Please keep in mind that PD accounting charges for the downtime days of non-use due vs scheduled maintenance downtime. Many PD service shops went above and beyond their normal repair hours to minimize the charges against their bikes.
The appeal and allure of HD to many PD's was simply that it was American built and they were enthusiasts for the brand. IOW, if it didn't look like a Harley, sound like a Harley, vibrate like a Harley ... it wasn't a motorcycle. The Bias against anything foreign was staggering. Officers wouldn't ride another brand for their professional use. When they were issued another brand, they intentionally abused the bikes to failure to get them in for unscheduled downtime.
Service departments wouldn't work on other brands, citing having "no tools" or "no factory training", or falsely claiming that "parts not available". I had more than several times where I was dispatched to repair a bike with a simple failure that a PD service dept parked in their shop and ignored working on or even ordering parts simply so that the bike would accrue unscheduled downtime charges and look bad on the running costs. My employer was alerted to these situations by folk in-house at the PD who wanted an honest assessment of the bikes we supplied.
In all candor, most PD motorcycle specs were written around the HD capabilities. IOW, was there enough frame to carry the weight and dimensions of the required extra equipment? Would the bike have a side stand that locked into position? Did it have floorboards? Did it have a rear wheel driven mechanical siren? And a very significant test, it had to reach 80 mph fully loaded with normal gear, kit, full fuel, and standard rider; typically, most PD equipped HD's only reached 80 mph. The braking test was also written to be met by the HD performance.
I witnessed more than a few "road tests" where the local HD dealership could not supply a bike that would meet the performance test specs of a PD, usually due to heavier than typical accessory gear and PD kit. HD factory would step in if that was the case and prepare a bike to meet the specs. After seeing the bike test improvement, we suspected that the test bike was "specially prepared" by HD. Some years later, I ran into proof of that having taken place with HD on road tests with civilian model bikes that were faring poorly in various motorcycling press tests.
Without a doubt, HD delivered the minimum of performance for this service for many years. In the era of electronic sirens, a PD requirement to have a "mechanically rear wheel driven siren" was simply not needed, but it served to eliminate a number of other very fine bikes from even bidding on an RFQ. All of them would outperform the HD in handling, acceleration, top speed, and braking. Additionally, all of them would easily deliver better fuel economy, longer engine/clutch/transmission/suspension/consumables service lives, were quieter, smoother, and do it for 100,000 miles at a fraction of the cost of a HD. None of them suffered from a shortage or delays in parts availability in their USA dealer networks. Many of the prospective bikes weighed hundreds of pounds less than the HD yet had equal or better HP & torque delivery, which greatly enhanced their performance.
Note, too, that flat-twin or 90 degree V-Twins have far superior air cooling than a narrow in-line V-Twin engine. I've ridden many a BMW or MotoGuzzi on hot days that barely got above "warm to the touch" on the valve cover, and the cylinder cooling fins were far more than adequate to keep that area well within normal working temps even on 100F degree days poking along in escort work with lights and com gear powered up.
To this day, I look at the HD aftermarket items which are targeted to "fix" the shortcomings of the HD bike as manufactured. If it isn't shifter linkage items, or motor mounts, or oil persistent oil leak areas, it's something else that the aftermarket HD enthusiasts have come up with to "cure" the original factory defects/design. C'mon ... cam drives aren't a trivial detail, and a major manufacturer such as HD should never have released a bike into service which for years needs to be "fixed" for this flaw. Any other manufacturer, upon discovery that they've got a problem/fault area, would have redesigned this to positively eliminate the failure rate. Or a cylinder attaching design that promotes cylinder base oil leaks upon normal use of the bike and requires an expensive repair to "fix" for awhile. But not HD, they gleefully sell the defective product for years and let their customer base either pay dearly for the repairs or allow the aftermarket to supply an improved item to the customers.
Even you acknowledge that other machines of far lesser displacement can outperform one of your bikes, and I'd suggest that a Burgman is far more ergonomically comfortable than a Sporty. As well, a Sporty at over 90 mph isn't exactly a confidence inspiring bike for me ... and I've been riding some very fine Brit, Italian, and German marques since the 1960's which would do those speeds. In today's marketplace, there's a lot of big-bore Japanese bikes that will blow the doors off the HD and go for a lot longer distance with far less expense. Even their mid-range bikes will do that. And there's now a bunch of North American produced big V-twins that appear to making inroads into the HD segment with substantially better bikes, if what I'm reading in the tests is correct ... Victory and Polaris come to mind.
IF you like HD product and it meets your expectations, then so be it. Buy/Ride/Enjoy. I'm happy to see another motorcycling enthusiast out on the roads.
PS: I now have two Softtails in my yard each awaiting a deposit from the owners for the needed aftermarket parts to repair their shift linkages. I fixed another one a couple months ago and he told a couple of his riding buddies about my work. The local HD dealer gets a lot more for his shop time and parts mark-up than I do, hence the projects on my doorstep. I didn't need this work and I don't go out and sabotage the bikes so that they come in with these problems, the bikes fail in normal use all by themselves. Both of these bikes aren't used for anything except around town rides ... a long distance drive for them might be 80 miles in a day. Oh, and both of them have the rear cylinder base seeps, but the owners are willing to live with that problem for now and just add oil as needed. One of them has an ignition switch that takes a pair of pliers to give you enough leverage on it to switch the bike on. Oh well, so much for that vaunted durability and reliability for the "lump".
I didn't read all of that, but I know it is a detailed explanation of why you hate HD's. That's cool. My experience with owning them, and being immersed in the culture, is diametrically opposed to yours. But, since mine is the version I have seen with my own eyes, and lived, Im sticking by my opinion and Im pretty sure you are going to stick with yours. Harley's are a binary issue. You love em or hate em
I didn't read all of that, but I know it is a detailed explanation of why you hate HD's. That's cool. My experience with owning them, and being immersed in the culture, is diametrically opposed to yours. But, since mine is the version I have seen with my own eyes, and lived, Im sticking by my opinion and Im pretty sure you are going to stick with yours. Harley's are a binary issue. You love em or hate em
If being " Immersed in the culture " means, overpriced, overweight and under powered. I'd rather not follow the fad. When they make these, and street legal. I'll own a HD.
If being " Immersed in the culture " means, overpriced, overweight and under powered. I'd rather not follow the fad. When they make these, and street legal. I'll own a HD.
I didn't read all of that, but I know it is a detailed explanation of why you hate HD's. That's cool. My experience with owning them, and being immersed in the culture, is diametrically opposed to yours. But, since mine is the version I have seen with my own eyes, and lived, Im sticking by my opinion and Im pretty sure you are going to stick with yours. Harley's are a binary issue. You love em or hate em
OK! Enjoy your scoot. I will not dispute your satisfaction with your purchase.
Nowhere in your "experience", however, do I see any mention of being involved with the commercial use of the motorcycles at a PD or HP level. That's what you were commenting on and I infer that you have no actual knowledge about this use whatsoever. You've probably never seen the service records, up/down time reports, rider reports, fleet fuel consumption by bike, nor the books on the acquisition cost and subsequent depreciated disposal cost of the bikes at any PD, have you?
I got to see those numbers, talk with the riders, train the service techs, and deal with the Lt's in charge of the patrols so that I could bring those guideline data points back to my employers for their planning to meet or exceed those parameters. Understand that I wasn't just a casual rider, I was directly involved at a manufacturer's/importer level with the sales of bikes to the PD's. So it's not just an "opinion" that I've posted here, it's FACT as observed while bidding, prepping, and road testing the bikes with the prospective customers per the BID requests. My livelihood depended upon satisfying my customers, the riders, the mechanics, the purchasing agents, and the bean counters at their headquarters. We met those challenges and exceeded HD's numbers by a fair margin every time; nevertheless, many PD's simply wouldn't buy anything else because of their bias against "foreign" bikes or didn't "look or sound or ride" like a HD.
I will disagree with you re the "binary issue", however. I don't "hate" the bikes, they are what they are. They're a machine built to make a profit for the parent company and dealerships.
They just do it in a way which doesn't satisfy my motorcycling requirements; perhaps you are the one who doesn't have any objectivity about your purchases and are angry that you're not receiving universal approval of how you've spent your money?
As I've pointed out repeatedly, buying what you want and get out and ride is the most important point.
Fact is, I love what HD has done for bringing many folk into the motorcycling fold and getting folk out to ride.
But please, don't get on a forum and take me to task for not agreeing with you that the HD does things that I know for fact that they don't do well in comparison to other brands.
Indeed, as you admit ... a 400cc machine can outperform your machine of well over double the displacement. In the real world of riding for most of us, we don't get to run our bikes 90 mph very much ... even out here in WY with stretches of unobserved highways and 80 mph interstate speed limits. In town, ain't no way you're riding your sporty 90 mph, at least not for long if you're hanging onto your driver's license and affordable insurance rates.
With the largest police force in the country going back to HD's, combined with this:
Quote:
Note, too, that flat-twin or 90 degree V-Twins have far superior air cooling than a narrow in-line V-Twin engine. I've ridden many a BMW or MotoGuzzi on hot days that barely got above "warm to the touch" on the valve cover, and the cylinder cooling fins were far more than adequate to keep that area well within normal working temps even on 100F degree days poking along in escort work with lights and com gear powered up.
Your opinion is simply not credible. I own a BMW currently. I can assure you the jugs throw major heat. There is a circuit built in to shut them down before they melt. But still, when that happens, you are finishing your ride on a trailer. All the people that bought early RS models will be surprised to hear that the body work that melted on theirs was not due to heat. The 'club' I ride with has a few Guzzi owners. They too would be doubled over in laughter to hear the cylinders of their bikes are "barely above warm to the touch" on rides.
You hate HD's, I get it, lots of people do. Why would you even comment with negative stuff like above?
Don't bother to respond. This is my last post in this thread. People don't need to read this stuff.
Look...I've been a hardcore sportbike guy for 30 years. I used to be one of those guys who poked fun of guys on their Harleys since they (especially back then) were terribly unreliable bikes.
However, after getting into Ducatis and owning several (and working on them) I came to have more of an appreciation for a bike that you buy for its looks, character, and sound/feel, yet you know you may not always get home. This softened me toward Harleys.
Another step in that direction was that the last Ducati I owned was one of their superbikes, which was great fun when going really fast, but terrible for anything else, and a torture rack for my back and knees.
So I now own a Harley (as well as a Japanese ADV bike and a UTV), but I can be honest with myself that I love my Harley for what it is...not because it's the best power-to-weight ratio bike, or quick in corners, but it sounds fantastic and looks great, and the Sportster engines are actually very reliable (they don't suffer the notorious twin-cam motor cam chain failures).
Also, with regard to the "Harley posers"...we can all look at the people who buy their new Harley, then load it with $5k in dealer-added accessories, and another $2k in branded clothing...but I knew Ducati guys who were the same way. I have come to the viewpoint where as long as people get out and ride, I think it's all good. There are riders and there are non-riders. We riders need to go a bit easier on each other than we often do.
I agree, we are all part of the same brotherhood. And any "digs" I do are in fun, hope no one takes it seriously. And now that I've gone "bi" (ADV and cruiser) I have to admit...I went out and bought a black leather jacket. Textile comes out for the Tiger, leather for the Rocket. Might actually buy some patches and go full pirate. Well, as close as you can get while still being MTGATT. Oh...and (hangs head in shame) I do wash the cruiser and polish the chrome.
Honestly, it was a mistake even to ask about HP for a cruiser. None of them are really designed to make HP, especially stock. Even the Rocket only makes 146HP...out of 2300cc. Whereas the Tiger makes 95 out of 800cc, and plenty of 600cc sport bikes make 100hp (all at the engine). If the Rocket made the same specific HP as the Tiger it would be putting out 273hp! Now that would be frickin' impressive!
Last edited by Toyman at Jewel Lake; 09-21-2015 at 03:49 PM..
I agree, we are all part of the same brotherhood. And any "digs" I do are in fun, hope no one takes it seriously. And now that I've gone "bi" (ADV and cruiser) I have to admit...I went out and bought a black leather jacket. Textile comes out for the Tiger, leather for the Rocket. Might actually buy some patches and go full pirate. Well, as close as you can get while still being MTGATT. Oh...and (hangs head in shame) I do wash the cruiser and polish the chrome.
Think I can summarize some of the comments so far in this thread:
1. H-D has a big aftermarket essentially as part of the sales floor, they are made to be built-up from Mile 0 to improve upon somewhat-paltry off-the-shelf perf. numbers. Analogous to Porsche AG's models, interestingly enough: a base-model 911, 911 C4, or the S models for example, is only the start point to options/performance adventure one can buy into. Which can easily add $35K to a $100K car, believe it.
2. Difficult to refute evidence calls into question H-D's commitment to consistently reliable, high-performance machines for long-term PD use. That's worth researching further: police put the hardest use on bikes of any agency, and fleet-level records and experience are worth analysis vs. being dismissed by non sequitur rebuttals. I've read good, bad, and very bad fleet reports on this matter. Do your homework.
3. Custom "Harley's" do look the part, for-sure, to a certain kind of image/aesthetic. Largely in the same way a stripper or chromed statue has a definite "joie de vivre," though all are definitely déclassé to more-sublime sensibilities.
4. "Buy American" is probably a mantra of some police departments, too, to the detriment of evidence and facts. People being how they are, police and the military in-particular for that matter. Makes me curious why Victory doesn't build a police bike for consideration (maybe they do!). One would think that government agencies would be data-driven, not rah-rah RE buying from a firm whose first advertising words start with, "For over 106 years, Harley-Davidson has..." I'd be more interested in a firm that starts with, "From inception in 2005, xMotorcycle Co. has incorporated the latest technological advances in durability, rider comfort, and high performance into our law enforcement models." One makes sense and inspires confidence, the other is asinine jingoism and non-market strategy (aka politics). Guess which is which?
I personally do not "hate" any particular brand, and more-emotionally-than-logically now ride Ducati (again) since 2010. JPN bikes perform better, in direct comparison, but biking is more than a little about emotions and passions. To casual riders, at-least. If my livelihood depended on the delivery of a specific brand, or even model, I'd change my tune based on facts and analysis.
PS: my "brotherhood" are fellow professionals and riders who enjoy spirited rides on the street or dirt, preferably a bit of both. I judge on the execution, not the brand. To that end, scumbags who belong to criminal conspiracy organizations, certain so called major brand-name "biker gangs", are neither my spiritual nor kindred bros, thanks for asking. Rather, they are enemies of the state to be prosecuted under RICO and similar, soon as practicable, fundamentally no different than pirates hanged as-captured by the British Empire in nautical days of yore. Biker gangs, highwaymen, pirates, road agents, same breed of dirtbag. Just to be clear: that's not hating, it's "seeking justice from lawful authority" to maintain civilization.
To begin with, your private use of the bike doesn't match up with the weight load and electrical demands, nor longevity expected in Police service.
As well, the longevity of the Evo engines was pretty limited before major work was required. I won't go into all the details here, but suffice to say that most HD's were worn out by 50,000 miles and their economic service life was over.
I would have guessed the EVO engines were good for more than 50,000 miles but I see what you're saying regarding the weight load and electrical demands. I guess a twin cam model like a 103 c.i. would last even less time due to a hotter running bike as a result of a larger air-cooled engine and very lean fueling.
Quote:
To this day, I look at the HD aftermarket items which are targeted to "fix" the shortcomings of the HD bike as manufactured. If it isn't shifter linkage items, or motor mounts, or oil persistent oil leak areas, it's something else that the aftermarket HD enthusiasts have come up with to "cure" the original factory defects/design. C'mon ... cam drives aren't a trivial detail, and a major manufacturer such as HD should never have released a bike into service which for years needs to be "fixed" for this flaw. Any other manufacturer, upon discovery that they've got a problem/fault area, would have redesigned this to positively eliminate the failure rate. Or a cylinder attaching design that promotes cylinder base oil leaks upon normal use of the bike and requires an expensive repair to "fix" for awhile. But not HD, they gleefully sell the defective product for years and let their customer base either pay dearly for the repairs or allow the aftermarket to supply an improved item to the customers.
I thought the HD cam drives were an issue that was taken care of fairly quickly.
HD selling a defective product (if that's true) means more money for the dealerships.
I'm skeptical current-day BMW Corporate would quickly redesign something flawed.
I'm curious of the quality differences between HDs made within the past few or so years compared to the EVO era.
Quote:
As well, a Sporty at over 90 mph isn't exactly a confidence inspiring bike for me ... and I've been riding some very fine Brit, Italian, and German marques since the 1960's which would do those speeds.
Why isn't a Sporty going 90 mph as confidence inspiring as a 1960s era Brit, Italian, or German bike? Low quality suspension?
Quote:
And there's now a bunch of North American produced big V-twins that appear to making inroads into the HD segment with substantially better bikes, if what I'm reading in the tests is correct ... Victory and Polaris come to mind.
Perhaps Victory can snag some police department business in the future.
I have to question really why any PD would buy HDs? Not to knock the bike as such, they are pretty. But is a air-cooled engine a decent choice for any bike that spends considerable time idling and in slow speed operation in HOT weather? Seems like most any water-cooled bike would do better. In addition, a HD (and many other cruisers) don't have the HP to run down much of anything in the line of even remotely performance oriented cars, let alone other bikes. I would think any sport tourer (except maybe the FJR due to chain drive) or a BMW touring bike or a Gold Wing would be a better fit. More power, better cooling systems, more storage space, more comfort.
Honestly though...it pains me to say this as a performance oriented guy, but on the street, there is such a thing as ENOUGH. How many riders have the skill to utilize a 180hp, 480lb sport bike to anywhere near it's full potential? And how many kids that bought one didn't live long enough to get it home from the dealership? Even more so, how often can you use even a fraction of most bike's potential and keep your license? I have to admit, that's why my real love is ADV bikes. There aren't nearly as many cops, or cages, on dirt roads in the national forest. The big law to worry about there is gravity.
Given the skill level of the average rider, 100hp or even less is probably pretty darned reasonable.
Last edited by Toyman at Jewel Lake; 09-21-2015 at 09:05 PM..
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