US Car Makers in Dire Straits - your thoughts? (Union: appointed, sales)

[ottomobeale]

Be careful what you (dont) wish for: you just might get it. The automakers issue is FAR more complicated than the apologists or the antagonists make out.
This is a surface list.
1) Ford is probably best positioned to survive. It has decent products in most segments and the longest cash position. In a normal market Ford probably would have gone very slightly into the black by 2009-2010.
2) GM is a middling case. They are burning through cash too fast OTOH have a decent product line in most segments but at the very least LACK A GOOD SMALL CAR and that is a GIANT hole.
3) Chrysler is probably hopeless. They have jeep while disticntive and successful has low ranked quality, RAM trucks, one of the last successful minivans, and some specialty cars. Mercedes drained them dry and the new owners have not done much better.

Quality is close for Ford and to a lesser degree GM but perception is lagging
http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/25404
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?id=2008063 (broken link)

Note in the last link Ford beats Nissan and is within the margin of error of Honda. Yes really. Now perception is a totally different beast. I see all sorts of links of "all American cars are crap" and "my moms aunts friends daughter bought a Ford and it ate her babies type posts. Quite frankly in many circles its cool to bash domestic. The Fusion is one of the best built cars out there period. Ford Fusion (North America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
How many do you see compared to Camrys? PERCEPTION COUNTS!

While currency has some things to do with it. It is not the be all end all. Toyota builds most of their cars in the US.

People say NO! Fine. Are you prepared for 3 million more unemployed almost instantaneously? Unemployment in MI is near 8%. Are you prepared for 20% in MI 14% in OH 12% in IL and MO and 10% nationally?

Toyota does NOT want the plants. They do things their own way. Is not having motor vehicle producers a national security issue?

OTOH when is enough? Can GM turn around? Swords cut TWO directions.

Unions are an issue, especially in regards to benefits and work rules. They dont make $42 base an hour. And new hires (OK probably not many of those) make less.
New Contract Protects Wages, Provides Four Lump Sums - UAW/Chrysler Hourly Contract 2007 (http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/chrysler/hrly/chry_hr02.php - broken link)

OK make me car dictator and Ill do the following (this wont happen without me as car dictator):

Kill all existing union contract. You make:
$22.00 base an hour
+ standard 2000/5000 health insurance with $25 copays and $15 prescriptions at $200 bucks a month for a family (Welcome to the REAL WORLD GUYS! I get 3000/10000 insurace for that. You still do better than I do)
+ $3 layoff savings pay because it will happen. Can be tapped on layoffs and lockouts but not strikes. Kept IN THE NAME OF THE EMPLOYEE.
slim down to perhaps 5 work categories. Assembler, Tood and Die, Electrician, Millwright, Plumber - Boilermaker etc.
+ $2 401K contribution

My Idea? The big 2 We will nickname em the "big uns"
Chrysler is dead. Kill it and cut it apart. There are a few viable pieces.

Ford takes jeep as a gift and slims it down to two jeeps. (Wrangler and the Liberty) Ford gets 350 MM as a gift. Yep a gift. This gift must be spent on building that diesel engine line they whine they cant afford and they must bring it in and build the Euro Focus here with it. 65MPG Diesel Euro Focus IS A WINNER!
First Drive: 2008 Ford Focus European version - First Drive - Motor Trend
LOOKIT THIS THING! WINNER WINNER WINNER and they wont bring it here! WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE GUYS!?!???!!!!

GM takes Dodge keeping the specialty stuff (Charger Challenger Viper), the minivan, any other winners? Kills Saturn, Buick, ?GMC? and Hummer. GM is now Chevy, Pontiac, Cadillac, Dodge.
Ram Trucks eventually are sheet metal versions of existing Silverado models.
GMs $350MM gift is design work for a decent small car.

Edit: Forgot US government will accounce they back the warrantees so people are not actually afraid to buy the cars.

Enforce the new CAFE standards! The lower oil prices are temporary and the Middle East is still full of crazy fanatics.

[Hinton Bound]

Originally Posted by ottomobeale

Be careful what you (dont) wish for: you just might get it. The automakers issue is FAR more complicated than the apologists or the antagonists make out.
This is a surface list.
1) Ford is probably best positioned to survive. It has decent products in most segments and the longest cash position. In a normal market Ford probably would have gone very slightly into the black by 2009-2010.
2) GM is a middling case. They are burning through cash too fast OTOH have a decent product line in most segments but at the very least LACK A GOOD SMALL CAR and that is a GIANT hole.
3) Chrysler is probably hopeless. They have jeep while disticntive and successful has low ranked quality, RAM trucks, one of the last successful minivans, and some specialty cars. Mercedes drained them dry and the new owners have not done much better.

Quality is close for Ford and to a lesser degree GM but perception is lagging
Quality ratings improve for domestic automakers | ScrippsNews
2008 Initial Quality Study | J.D. Power and Associates (http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?id=2008063 - broken link)

Note in the last link Ford beats Nissan and is within the margin of error of Honda. Yes really. Now perception is a totally different beast. I see all sorts of links of "all American cars are crap" and "my moms aunts friends daughter bought a Ford and it ate her babies type posts. Quite frankly in many circles its cool to bash domestic. The Fusion is one of the best built cars out there period. Ford Fusion (North America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
How many do you see compared to Camrys? PERCEPTION COUNTS!

While currency has some things to do with it. It is not the be all end all. Toyota builds most of their cars in the US.

People say NO! Fine. Are you prepared for 3 million more unemployed almost instantaneously? Unemployment in MI is near 8%. Are you prepared for 20% in MI 14% in OH 12% in IL and MO and 10% nationally?

Toyota does NOT want the plants. They do things their own way. Is not having motor vehicle producers a national security issue?

OTOH when is enough? Can GM turn around? Swords cut TWO directions.

Unions are an issue, especially in regards to benefits and work rules. They dont make $42 base an hour. And new hires (OK probably not many of those) make less.
New Contract Protects Wages, Provides Four Lump Sums - UAW/Chrysler Hourly Contract 2007 (http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/chrysler/hrly/chry_hr02.php - broken link)

OK make me car dictator and Ill do the following (this wont happen without me as car dictator):

Kill all existing union contract. You make:
$22.00 base an hour
+ standard 2000/5000 health insurance with $25 copays and $15 prescriptions at $200 bucks a month for a family (Welcome to the REAL WORLD GUYS! I get 3000/10000 insurace for that. You still do better than I do)
+ $3 layoff savings pay because it will happen. Can be tapped on layoffs and lockouts but not strikes. Kept IN THE NAME OF THE EMPLOYEE.
slim down to perhaps 5 work categories. Assembler, Tood and Die, Electrician, Millwright, Plumber - Boilermaker etc.
+ $2 401K contribution

My Idea? The big 2 We will nickname em the "big uns"
Chrysler is dead. Kill it and cut it apart. There are a few viable pieces.

Ford takes jeep as a gift and slims it down to two jeeps. (Wrangler and the Liberty) Ford gets 350 MM as a gift. Yep a gift. This gift must be spent on building that diesel engine line they whine they cant afford and they must bring it in and build the Euro Focus here with it. 65MPG Diesel Euro Focus IS A WINNER!
First Drive: 2008 Ford Focus European version - First Drive - Motor Trend
LOOKIT THIS THING! WINNER WINNER WINNER and they wont bring it here! WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE GUYS!?!???!!!!

GM takes Dodge keeping the specialty stuff (Charger Challenger Viper), the minivan, any other winners? Kills Saturn, Buick, ?GMC? and Hummer. GM is now Chevy, Pontiac, Cadillac, Dodge.
Ram Trucks eventually are sheet metal versions of existing Silverado models.
GMs $350MM gift is design work for a decent small car.

Enforce the new CAFE standards! The lower oil prices are temporary and the Middle East is still full of crazy fanatics.

All Hail the Dictator!

Good ideas, but not profitable to those who matter- and that ain't you-n-me. It's a free-for-all with our tax dollars, and we're too weak to fix it. Politicians can be voted out, but replaced with a carbon copy. Maybe different color/sex/religion... but same end result.

[casper324]

I think the auto makers brought alot of this on themselves. There was a time when a person could walk in to ANY dealership and walk out with the car of their dreams. I know of broke people who were approved for 50,000 cars.

Who long have we had the warning regarding fuel efficent cars? Yet GM continued to pump out gas guzzlers.

I don't believe the American Tax Payer should be contributing to retirement benefits of Auto makers when they have better health care then I can afford.

Didn't we bail out Chrysler once before?

Let them sink, they have proved they can not manage their business.........and because of that they shouldn't manage any of our money.

[DowntownJerseyCity]

Originally Posted by casper324

I think the auto makers brought alot of this on themselves. There was a time when a person could walk in to ANY dealership and walk out with the car of their dreams. I know of broke people who were approved for 50,000 cars.

Who long have we had the warning regarding fuel efficent cars? Yet GM continued to pump out gas guzzlers.

I don't believe the American Tax Payer should be contributing to retirement benefits of Auto makers when they have better health care then I can afford.

Didn't we bail out Chrysler once before?

Let them sink, they have proved they can not manage their business.........and because of that they shouldn't manage any of our money.

Gas guzzlers had/have absolutely not a thing to do with this situation. American cars right now aren't selling, period. When quality and reliability was in the toilet for years and years and years, someone should have woken up out of the coma and realized Toyota and Honda were eating the Big 3's lunch. Chrysler was bailed out before, yes, but Lee Iacocca had Chrysler build the K car and it brought them back from the brink, but it won't happen this time.

The union sympathizers need to get a little dose of reality, and realize the UAW and most other organized labor has outlived it's usefulness. If anyone should be forming unions, it should be white collar workers.

[joe moving]

I will admit i do NOT understand the ramifications. There are just so many crappy cars out there.

I've never owned an American car that was actually built in the US. My VW is also Mexican, I am pretty sure, paid off and getting 38 MPG in the city.

In 2002 , my VW (which now doesn't pass emissions so they had to modify it... ironically the car that now passes emissions gets worse mileage....) got 50 MPG... and all the US can do is make hybrid Escalades that get 13MPG. I remember going on a road trip, averaging 90 MPH with a roof rack full of skis and averaging 40 and I was upset.

[mike0421]

Originally Posted by doc1

They should lend the money, not give it away.

That formula didn't work so well back in the 1970s when we were lending money to various Latin America superpowers Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, etc. It was never paid back. Now you have people like Bono jetting around saying we should forgive this debt, because we have more than these countries, and that it's not fair.

[tahiti]

Originally Posted by HobokenGuy

Gas guzzlers had/have absolutely not a thing to do with this situation. American cars right now aren't selling, period. When quality and reliability was in the toilet for years and years and years, someone should have woken up out of the coma and realized Toyota and Honda were eating the Big 3's lunch. Chrysler was bailed out before, yes, but Lee Iacocca had Chrysler build the K car and it brought them back from the brink, but it won't happen this time.

The union sympathizers need to get a little dose of reality, and realize the UAW and most other organized labor has outlived it's usefulness. If anyone should be forming unions, it should be white collar workers.

if unions are bad, they're bad, whether for blue or white collar workers. why would you advocate this? because you're white collar?

[DowntownJerseyCity]

Originally Posted by tahiti

if unions are bad, they're bad, whether for blue or white collar workers. why would you advocate this? because you're white collar?

Not a bit! I was trying to be funny since it would be amusing to see a bunch of accountants on strike.

[todd72173]

Ford/GM/Chrysler cars all are terrible. Subpar against foreign cars..We simply make crappier cars than other countries. Management wanted to stick with SUVS for the 90's and 2000's and thats what they get.. Out of business!!!

Does my company get bailed out when we make a mistake? NO! Im sure your's dont either! Bad companies need to be let go and replaced with good ones.

See ya Ford/GM/Chrysler --- your cars always sucked!

[FlyersFan]

I run my own small business. If I made poor decisions and were on the brink of failure would I get a bailout ?