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Incidentally, Doobage, the proposal for the full Second Avenue line involved running it up to Pelham Bay Park in the Bronx--yeah, it would be replacing the current #6 line, since BMT trains are two feet wider than their IRT cousins, which means all the platforms at Bronx stations would have to be shaved back. (Then the #6 line would run only between 125 Street and Brooklyn Bridge). That proposal was put on the backburner almost from the day it came out. Terminating the line at 125 Street, if not running it crosstown along 125, was a compromise alternative.
-Some noise for those whole live on Third Avenue in the Bronx (Mostly lots, vacant buildings, low income renters, and public housing right now).
The Pro's
-Fastest direct access to Downtown/Midtown Manhattan with no transfers and the rest of the city.
-Increased value of residential and commercial units in the area.
-Increased growth.
-Increased revenue for local business.
-Increased number of jobs.
I know that, but I'm just saying that it is a con. I used to live in Brighton Beach and the subway access was great, but you can't ignore the noise from the trains screeching around that curve.
Sure, there were a lot of stores that thrived under the el, but I'm sure the area would've prospered more (meaning wealthier people would be attracted to live there) had the train been underground. A concrete el would've helped, but not to the extent that putting it underground would.
If you notice, in Bushwick, the areas near the (L), which is underground gentrified faster than the areas near the (J)(M)(Z), which are above ground. The (L) is generally a better line than the (J)(M)(Z) (easier transfers, more frequent, etc), but I'm sure there were people who were turned off from living near the elevated train.
Regarding all these comments about encouraging "growth", New York City currently has a population of 8.4 million, which is at or near its all time high. This is not Chicago or Detroit or even New York circa 1975. In other words, we are full, and I don't think we want to shoehorn another million people into Manhattan, or even into Staten Island and Queens. No, we need more subway lines not to accommodate population growth, but to facilitate business and for the convenience of whichever 8.4 million people live here plus those who work here.
Manhattan's Population in
1910 2,331,542
today 1,585,873
difference 745,669
Brooklyn's Population in
1950 2,738,175
today 2,504,700
difference 233,475
Bronx's Population in
1970 1,471,701
today 1,385,108
difference 86,593
total difference if you add up all 3 borough's difference from peak population 1,065,737
so I guess NY can take in at least 1,065,737 more people.
Manhattan's Population in
1910 2,331,542
today 1,585,873
difference 745,669
Brooklyn's Population in
1950 2,738,175
today 2,504,700
difference 233,475
Bronx's Population in
1970 1,471,701
today 1,385,108
difference 86,593
total difference if you add up all 3 borough's difference from peak population 1,065,737
so I guess NY can take in at least 1,065,737 more people.
You do realize that you took population figures for three different census years for each of those boroughs, don't you? Mixing and matching to "prove" a point doesn't work in the real world. (And besides, no matter what the populations of the boroughs were in those years, it doesn't change the fact that New York City's current population has passed the 8 million mark, which is an all-time high).
There are too many people in NYC who don't contribute to the City's well being. They take but they don't give. That is the problem. NYC has the capacity for more people. Just not the moochers.
2.3 million in Manhattan in 1910? I know it's been 1M+ since the late 19th century but 2.3 sounds high to me. Even today it's only about 1.5M and that's with all the high rises that didn't exist 100 years ago.
Manhattan's Population in
1910 2,331,542
today 1,585,873
difference 745,669
Brooklyn's Population in
1950 2,738,175
today 2,504,700
difference 233,475
Bronx's Population in
1970 1,471,701
today 1,385,108
difference 86,593
total difference if you add up all 3 borough's difference from peak population 1,065,737
so I guess NY can take in at least 1,065,737 more people.
You're missing one thing, though: There was actually more transit to accomodate those people, and fewer people had cars. Manhattan in 1910 had the subways and elevated lines, and cars were just beginning to become popular (but because many residents were poor immigrants, they couldn't afford them).
1950s Brooklyn had the 5th Avenue, Myrtle Avenue, Lexington Avenue, and Culver els, which, again, could accomodate a larger population.
And 1970s Bronx had one more el: The Third Avenue El, which accomodated passengers better than the Bx15/Bx55 buses.
Keep in mind how much larger households were then, with families sharing 1 or 2 room apts, which today might be occupied by singles. All the newly constructed towers don't always translate to more units as well, plenty of apts have been combined to form larger units for fewer people. Im not sure Manhattan will ever reach it's peak density again with its ever increasingly wealthy demographic.
The demolition of the Third Ave. El in 1973 was a terrible mistake and contributed to further deterioration in the South Bronx.
It was NO mistake to rip that horrible monstrosity out, good grief what were they THINKING when they put that garbage right there along an urban street???
It totally blocked the sun and made the shops, sidewalks and ground under it a dark, gloomy "cave", it was noisy as hell when steel trains running over steel tracks ran back and forth just feet away from everyone's apartment windows on the second floors, where the passengers could see through all the windows into the apartments unless the residents kep drapes, curtains or blinds shut across their windows permanently- creating a dark hovel for them in what became basically a windowless apartment as a result.
In 1915 they moved the elevated tracks from where they were to the center of the street, disrupting the stores, businesses and residents yet again during all that work.
Individual electric trolly cars like Broadway had would have been fine- removing those for diesel smog belching buses was the MISTAKE!
It was the PEOPLE living in the South Bronx who trashed and destroyed their own neighborhoods not the loss of the EL, they allowed their kids to trash everything, paint ugly grafitti all over everything, break windows, set fires and worse. The drugs, booze, crime and thugs destroyed it.
In Brooklyn there were 2 neighborhoods side by side divided by a particular street whose name I forget, I used to bike thru them to get to the Brooklyn Bridge to go to work every day, on one side of the street, neighborhood "A" was populated by Hassidic Jews, neighborhood "B" was populated by Hispanic, Puerto-Rican, black, Hatian, Spanish and others.
"A" Was kept CLEAN! shop keepers would be out sweeping the sidewalks, the sidewalks and streets were CLEAN, everyone was dressed nicely, even the children, they took pride in their neighborhood and even had volunteer block patrols. No abandoned buildings, no broken windows, no drunks sitting around on the stoops playing card games.
"B" just across the street!!! was like the South Bronx- a broken down war zone, broken beer and wine bottle glass and trash all over the sidewalks and street, burned out stripped abandoned cars sitting in the streets propped on milk crates missing their wheels, grafitti all over, abandoned store fronts, broken windows, abandoned buildings, working age men lolling around playing card games and drinking, you DEFINITELY did not feel safe there!
You definitely felt safe in "A" across the street!
The ONLY difference there was the PEOPLE who lived there, it was the same buildings, same area, same everything, only the makeup of the residents was different and on one side people had PRIDE in their neighborhood while the people in the other neighborhood deliberately TRASHED and DESTROYED their residences and the neighborhood!
This is what you typically would see in neighborhood "A" when I was there:
The 2nd/3rd els should not be rebuilt. Hopefully they will actually get the funding needed and speed up the construction of the rest of the 2nd Avenue subway line. Today's weather proves that the underground subway service is more practical than outdoor tracks.
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