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I have always found joy in having a diverse group of friends. Your friends "gaffes" seem to be part of his nature. Something tells me that you may be a lonely person later in life. I'm not sure I'd even want to be friends with someone who expects such perfection.
I don't expect perfection, but I do expect for basic manners and courtesy.
Let me ask you then... if you had gone through a period in your life when you didn't have a car and a "Bob"-type picked you up, always saying "I'll be there at 7PM, and be ready!" only to be at least 30 minutes late every time (sometimes a full hour late)... without EVER calling to inform you that he'd be late, would that not annoy you?
If your "Bob" complained that you were keeping him out of gatherings when you weren't; then, you send out an email to all parties involved with 5 days' notice of the time and place of meeting... then on the day of the meeting, 1 1/2 hour before the event, you call "Bob" because he is the only one who has not RSVP'd, and then he claims he doesn't have time to check his emails (which is BS - who cannot spare TWO FREAKING MINUTES to read a short email at least once a day?)... and then now that "Bob" finally knows about the time of the meeting, he calls 10 minutes before to say he'll be 1 hour late due to "errands?"
Or better yet, if your "Bob" went vacationing with you and almost made you miss your outbound international flight and made you miss your return international flight?
Would you still classify such gaffes as just "nature?" Do you think none of this shows a pattern of laziness and sloppiness? A lack of willingness to change?
Bob, btw, is a director-level person at a mid-sized company. He deals with clients all the time and has a history of entertaining them. I fathom he's much more professional with customers - and yet he can't be half as courteous to friends he's known for more than 15 years?
First things first. There's a fundamental difference between a friend and an acquaintance. A friend is somebody you can trust with anything. An acquaintance is somebody you enjoy hanging out with. If you're lucky in life, you get 3-4 friends. The rest are people with whom you fill up time. Doesn't mean you don't enjoy being around them, however.
Now, on to your pretty convoluted OP. It boils down to this. You have two friends, one of whom is wholly unpleasant to be around, while the other has not grown up and causes all kinds of inconvenience to his friends because of his lack of consideration and maturity.
I offer that both are pretty much one and the same. Yeah, one is more engaging, but he still requires enormous amount of energy in your life. He is a consumer of happiness, not a producer. These are both people who are not worth your time.
On to your friend John. He has the noble quality of loyalty, which is admirable 99% of the time. Knowing that about him, you cannot dictate to him who he can and cannot associate with. If John invites you to go bowling, you can't say, "Well, if Bob and Prix are going to be there, then I'm not." That is just as rude and a bit immature--for we all sometimes have to endure unpleasant people.
When you bring up the subject of cutting people off in your life, you really are telling John that he should do the same, even if you don't couch it in those terms. Because John is a loyal person with evidently bottomless reservoirs of compassion, this puts him in a difficult position.
So, if I were you, I'd say nothing. If you learn that Bob and Prix are going to be there, you choose to go or not go without telling John why. If he asks, then it's fair game. But dictating the guest list is just not polite. And, quite frankly, when John gets a little older, he'll begin to understand what parasites these guys are and ditch them on his own. But, if what you tell me about John is correct, this is a good guy whose friendship is valuable to you. Alienating him just isn't what you want to do.
I have a friend like Bob, by the way. This guy continually screwed up his life by making incredibly boneheaded decisions. I mean jaw-dropping idiotic things. I found myself having to worry about what Keith was going to do next. I found myself really hating the circle of friends he had involved himself with. Finally, I realized that the friendship was one-way when he made himself scarce during my father's funeral, and I cut him off for a long time. I didn't make a proclamation. I didn't make a big deal out of it. I simply found other things to do. Finally, Keith got his act together in life, married a saintly woman who kept him in line, and our friendship resumed, albeit not as strongly as in high school and college.
I've cut off TWO very long-term friendships this year. I should have done it SOONER.
There's a real easy test -- well, fairly easy:
- if their positives outweigh their negatives, keep them as friends (and figure out how to deal with the issues)
- if their negatives outweigh their positives, lose them....FAST
This "test" has been very reliable for me.
For me, cutting off Bob has been gradual. I learned that with him, a direct/sudden approach doesn't work well. He's whiny and also manipulative (I learned this from the one time I confronted him directly about a terribly rude action on his part. Bob never apologized and claimed he had done no wrong - amusing because another friend who had been there, but who did not confront Bob, told me then that he asked Bob whether Bob's wife, who had also been there, had scolded or complained to Bob about Bob's rudeness. Bob's wife had in fact reprimanded Bob. After this occasion, I went 2 1/2 years without any contact with Bob - I refused to yield without an apology and he refused to apologize).
It was getting close to John, which started a little over 1 year ago (we have much more in common than I do w/ Bob, one of them being our childhood experiences, and get along much better) that I began to pull away from Bob. John as a buddy was much more fun, open-minded, reliable, and courteous than Bob had ever been (and incidentally, as I got closer to John, John told me how he himself has often been frustrated with Bob's gaffes - the international flight incident I wrote just now involved Bob's and John's families, when they vacationed together a few years ago. John had to spend extra money for new tickets since both families missed their return flights thanks to Bob).
In response: while what you say is wise and practical, I did not meant to say I “dictate†to John whom John can or can’t associate with. John’s got friends I am not even acquainted with and I have enough ‘sense’ to discern those situations when John may casually mention a get-together which I am just simply not invited to.
Having said that, I did tell him not to invite me if Prix is coming. I have never said, “John, don’t ever invite Prix,†but I did say, “don’t ever put me in a situation when Prix will be there. If you’re having a dinner at your house or a get-together and Prix will attend, let me know so I can skip.†That may sound selfish, but Prix is way too unpleasant and we’re not friends – so I need not spend time with him. That several of John’s friends, who’ve known both John and Prix for years, feel the same way I feel after ONE meeting with Prix, should speak volumes.
I did tell John I find it amazing he puts up with both Prix (for his unpleasantness) and Bob (for his gaffes) and admire his patience. But I disagree with you that I’m also telling him to cut them off; I have never told him to cut them off, and simply wondered out loud to him how he can be so… compassionate, as you say.
You’re right; John is a very good friend who’s done me a lot of kind acts and I’ve expressed my appreciation for those acts and for his warm embrace by being a loyal and giving friend in every manner I found.
As for getting a little older – John is older than I am. He began to achieve “life milestones†way before I did. Married and a father by 30, a homeowner by 31. In many affairs, I seek his counsel and experience (whether it be what type of tools to buy or how to deal with a certain auto problem). I know him to be more experienced in life (as with you, his father passed away, and he had to deal with much difficulty during that time, as this death occurred when he was young) than I am, so perhaps in the end it will be I and not he who will change regarding boneheads like Bob.
I don't expect perfection, but I do expect for basic manners and courtesy.
Let me ask you then... if you had gone through a period in your life when you didn't have a car and a "Bob"-type picked you up, always saying "I'll be there at 7PM, and be ready!" only to be at least 30 minutes late every time (sometimes a full hour late)... without EVER calling to inform you that he'd be late, would that not annoy you?
If your "Bob" complained that you were keeping him out of gatherings when you weren't; then, you send out an email to all parties involved with 5 days' notice of the time and place of meeting... then on the day of the meeting, 1 1/2 hour before the event, you call "Bob" because he is the only one who has not RSVP'd, and then he claims he doesn't have time to check his emails (which is BS - who cannot spare TWO FREAKING MINUTES to read a short email at least once a day?)... and then now that "Bob" finally knows about the time of the meeting, he calls 10 minutes before to say he'll be 1 hour late due to "errands?"
Or better yet, if your "Bob" went vacationing with you and almost made you miss your outbound international flight and made you miss your return international flight?
Would you still classify such gaffes as just "nature?" Do you think none of this shows a pattern of laziness and sloppiness? A lack of willingness to change?
Bob, btw, is a director-level person at a mid-sized company. He deals with clients all the time and has a history of entertaining them. I fathom he's much more professional with customers - and yet he can't be half as courteous to friends he's known for more than 15 years?
I think there is a big difference in not relying on someone for things and dropping them as a friend. i have friends that i wouldnt rely on but I still love them dearly!
I think there is a big difference in not relying on someone for things and dropping them as a friend. i have friends that i wouldnt rely on but I still love them dearly!
All I'm saying is everyone may be late here or there, and sometimes we make innocent mistakes. But when it gets to be a pattern it's annoying. And if you're going to be late, call. We all have cell phones; it's 2008.
Bob has a place in my heart if you will cuz of all the college memories, and I am grateful for good things he's done. But Bob having these habits still makes him very annoying.
All I'm saying is everyone may be late here or there, and sometimes we make innocent mistakes. But when it gets to be a pattern it's annoying. And if you're going to be late, call. We all have cell phones; it's 2008.
Bob has a place in my heart if you will cuz of all the college memories, and I am grateful for good things he's done. But Bob having these habits still makes him very annoying.
S_H..I know it's a tough contemplating and eventually ending a friendship. I am in the same situation, more or less with a couple I befriended some time ago and this friendship seems to be past it's expiration date. I won't go into detail here as this is your thread, but I am very tempted to swing the ax any minute. A few other people I know are no longer associated with them and at the time, I was puzzled. However, I am begining to see the light. Likewise, I am desparately searching for reasons to repair things.
One of the aspects I have learned about friendships is that they do change and evolve through the course of our lives. A set of friends from high school or college may eventually break up, and we tend to make and lose them along the way. Additionally, values, priorities, loyalties, beliefs and other variables can impact a friendship positively or negatively through the years. Additionally, our own expectations and standards of what constitutes a true and meaningful friendship can also change as we get older.
While I don't "feel" what you are going through with Bob, I can understand your frustration over his immaturity and lack of respect. It seems the two of you at one time had a valued friendship, yet have gone in different directions over time. I have learned that respect and communication are the basic elements that should be present in all relationships, especially personal ones. Once those aspects diminish, then the frienship is in serious trouble.
I will be the first to say that I have committed many gaffes and made some very bad decisions in my life that have not only stunted, but ended some meaningful friendships. I am far from perfect, but as you mentioned, I do expect a degree of respect and consideration. I do cherish and value the friendships I still have today, and I can say without a doubt they are lifelong ones.
I have cut off a few friends I went to school with. A couple of them lead lifestyles that I dont think are productive (drugs/hookers) or others that have become mooches. I have a hard time dealing with someone in their 30s who cant take care of themselves, or has to continually call dad to help with their money/life problems. While I dont claim to be the pinnacle of morality or responsibility, sometimes you have to leave some folks behind. Because as the cliche goes if you lie with dogs your bound to pick up fleas.
- do you cut people off or do you just "tolerate" them?
- did marriage and family make it harder for you to "lose" friends who drove you crazy or who were a burden or with whom "friendship" was too exhausting?
I tolerate them until they cut ME off.
Seriously, I've never "broken off" a friendship. I've had a couple friends who pissed me off and a couple who got heavily into drugs. I quit spending time with them as often as I had and eventually quit spending any time with them, but it was never a sudden break unless one of us moved away. Usually we remain "distant friends". It's nice to see them when we happen to run into each other, but we no longer hang out together.
I have always found joy in having a diverse group of friends. Your friends "gaffes" seem to be part of his nature. Something tells me that you may be a lonely person later in life. I'm not sure I'd even want to be friends with someone who expects such perfection.
You can have a diverse set of friends without having to put up with people who are rude or inconsiderate/selfish and have no regard for your time.
Yeah, I have one friend who can never be on time, but she has so many other good qualities, I can overlook that one. However, if they are riding on the fence, that easily could tip them over. It's very rude.
You are a different person at different points in your life. I don't think it's a bad idea to review and clean the closet every once in a while. It's actually healthy, and it makes room for new experiences and new people.
A solid core of old friends is always important. But you don't have to keep every friend you have made.
Being single or not is irrelevant. You don't have to be friends with someone for your wife to be friends with them. Or you can act as a couple. It's up to you.
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