Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And I think you just nailed it when it comes to Ballantyne. Ballantyne is starting to build up, but South Park has "town centers" surrounding it that are more inviting to the pedestrian. Neither South Park nor Ballantyne can be confused with being true town centers mainly because the town centers of these area are walkable islands surrounded by vehicle-centric development (just like North Hills).
No unfortunately not just like NHs. Southpark is more “walkable” and denser then Ballantyne currently, and North Hills is significantly more walkable and denser and self sustained then Southpark. They are all different developments and that’s ok. I’m sorry you didn’t see NHs for anything more then a town center but it factually is quite a bit more then that. The retail and restaurants might have that same look as the other town centers around both Charlotte and Raleigh but they are not the same.
I don't think Charlotte will have much high-rise development outside of Uptown and SouthEnd anytime soon. Ballantyne is and will likely remain suburban in nature as that's what the residents of the area seem to demand and prefer. That being said, Southpark does have a slightly higher chance of it than Ballantyne. Ballantyne is designed to be the ultimate suburban style area. Most people moving there aren't interested in walkability or dense urbanity. Some people on these boards tend to forget that there are actually A LOT of people who prefer suburban style living or else that type of development wouldn't be so popular.
Two main issues prevent high-rises outside of Uptown in my opinion:
- NIMBY's in the singe-family neighborhoods that surround the developments in Southpark and Ballantyne are among the wealthiest in the region and will pushback hard against densifying and changing the landscape too drastically of those areas. You can already see some of this at play right now with the way Elizabeth residents are fighting (a losing fight IMO) against a proposed skyscraper off 4th St in that area. Myers Park residents are also fighting against proposed densifying developments in and near their neighborhood. Also there is loud opposition to Charlotte wanting to allow for more multi-family zoning inside the current single-family dominated areas within the city.
- The competition from Uptown itself. Most developers considering a high-rise in Charlotte will almost always prefer to build in or very close to Uptown. Uptown itself still has vacant lots and underdeveloped land so there's little demand for a skyscraper in further out neighborhoods for now. A developer spending the money to build a skyscraper wants his project added to and marketed with the existing skyline, near all the current glitzy parts of the city. You're more likely to see places like Elizabeth, Dilworth, or even North Tryon receive high-rises before Southpark or Ballantyne.
The possibilities with the River District will be interesting as I'd love to see Charlotte actually do something with the Catawba River being on its doorstep. But for now no one knows what that development will truly look like.
Charlotte doesn't have a North Hills style development outside Uptown in scope nor urbanity now nor on the horizon. It's fully okay for the Triangle to have something that Charlotte doesn't.
North Hills is like birkdale village x2 but with a mall on one side and the other side some high rises.
Not too different from SouthPark except South Park doesn’t really have a town center feel. They tried to make Piedmont Towers town center feeling but north hills just has the more fun, great place to walk around vibe like Birkdale. And the towers are taller.
SouthPark And North Hills are definitely a product of their times. Suburban developments are much more live/work/play and have the “village” feels these days.
Meanwhile, the most notable addition to SouthPark lately has been this horrible 90’s/2000’s thing that does nothing for pedestrian activity or liveliness. It literally looks like it did the most not to integrate with the pedestrian surroundings
Reminds me of the monstrosity that they added to Crabtree Valley Mall area - just opened or opening within the next week or so...does nothing at all for the ground level experiences and looks significantly different than its surroundings. Really boring and disappointing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte
Yeah, I have made deliveries to North Hills and I'm familiar with the "second skyline" that is starting to emerge off of I-440. I've just never witnessed a different or unique visual ground level experience from it. To me, it all looks like Birkdale, Ballantyne, Baxter Village, Piedmont Town center, Charleston Row (Ayrsley), Metropolitan Midtown, Phillips Place, and several other "live/work/play" gimmicks scattered all over the greater Charlotte area. I personally don't talk about these places (not because Charlotte doesn't have them, but because they are hardly unique and worthy of mentioning).
No, the ground level experience is not particularly "unique" on either side of North Hills. But the density, walkability and connected-ness of NH is significantly different than any other non-downtown in NC. There are high rise residential/office towers, free trolleys, and fantastic pedestrian environment. We also don't mention the region's other live/work/play developments, of which there are many, for the same reasons you don't - not much development, not very unique...though I imagine if some of the BC hotels and updates were hitting Charlotte, we would have heard all about it. North Hills is different for Raleigh though, because of its height, expanse, and constant growth. It is soon to have a skyline that rivals downtown Durham's.
I think it's a little lame and disingenuous of you to include Baxter Village, Birkdale, Charleston Row etc in your examples of "Charlotte" though. I'm not interested in suburbs of Charlotte when I ask what I asked, I'm interested in Charlotte which is why I specified the city name. As much as you will hate to admit it, Charlotte is a huuuuuge land area (the CITY of Charlotte itself). For you to have to include other cities in different states of an already massive city to prove your point sort of speaks for itself. Omni to Birkdale is 16 miles / 20 minutes. Downtown Raleigh to downtown Cary is 10 miles / 15 minutes. Epicentre to Ballantyne is 17 miles / 22 mins. Downtown Raleigh to Park West Village (Morrisville) is 15 miles / 22 minutes. I can drive from downtown Raleigh to downtown Durham in about the same amount of time as it would take to drive from UNCC to South Park. Downtown Raleigh to Hillsborough St (NC State) district is 2 miles / 6 mins. South End is exactly the same distance from uptown as Cameron Village is from downtown Raleigh.
At any rate, I didn't know about a few of those suburban live/work/play developments you mentioned in the suburbs, so thanks for that! Interesting stuff.
Last edited by LordHelmit; 12-26-2019 at 07:38 PM..
Charlotte doesn't have a North Hills style development outside Uptown in scope nor urbanity now nor on the horizon. It's fully okay for the Triangle to have something that Charlotte doesn't.
For years, Greensboro had the tallest non-downtown building in the state. Heck, Greensboro still has the state's largest arena I believe. It's great to have variety around the state. However, we have had this midtown Raleigh vs Charlotte's mutiple smaller live/work/play centers dotted around the city debate before. Way back when, we (Trent and I) both agreed that I-440 created midtown similarly to how I-277 is causing midtown, Stonewall, Gateway, and South end to rise rapidly. This is why I asked him on the previous page what is his definition and to please post pictures. I did that with full knowledge of what North Hills looks like in the area surrounding midtown park.
The entire goal of bringing up midtown was an attempt to say "Hey, we've got something on Charlotte" thanks to I-440 (while completely ignoring the NFL/MLS stadium and the 400ft-plus towers off of an I-277 exit near the Stonewall Street light rail station). I mean really? We're now at the point of omitting parts of Charlotte just to give props to Raleigh.
What Raleigh truly has on Charlotte is NC State University and that's no half-truth.
What Raleigh truly has on Charlotte is NC State University and that's no half-truth.
Well, kinda. The Park is the real differentiator. That and the parts of the state government not shipped off to the hinterlands (yet).
Also perhaps I’m not following the 440 debate, but that didn’t cause the rise of North Hills, the development of which began decades before the loop was finished. And I don’t think I understand the 277 reference at all. Is it a mile from side-to-side? It is downtown Charlotte, it’s not causing development, though it’s perhaps channeling it.
For years, Greensboro had the tallest non-downtown building in the state. Heck, Greensboro still has the state's largest arena I believe. It's great to have variety around the state. However, we have had this midtown Raleigh vs Charlotte's mutiple smaller live/work/play centers dotted around the city debate before. Way back when, we (Trent and I) both agreed that I-440 created midtown similarly to how I-277 is causing midtown, Stonewall, Gateway, and South end to rise rapidly. This is why I asked him on the previous page what is his definition and to please post pictures. I did that with full knowledge of what North Hills looks like in the area surrounding midtown park.
The entire goal of bringing up midtown was an attempt to say "Hey, we've got something on Charlotte" thanks to I-440 (while completely ignoring the NFL/MLS stadium and the 400ft-plus towers off of an I-277 exit near the Stonewall Street light rail station). I mean really? We're now at the point of omitting parts of Charlotte just to give props to Raleigh.
What Raleigh truly has on Charlotte is NC State University and that's no half-truth.
No - the entire discussion regarding North Hills is not to say "we have something on Charlotte". Why does this all have to be so negative and competitive ? Some people in Raleigh love North Hills, some don't have an opinion and others may hate it.
North Hills is unique to North Carolina not just Raleigh. There's nothing like it between DC and Atlanta, in terms of the density and height. Period. Some like it (I do) and others may think differently. Kane is brilliant by packing in so much density in order to make it truly walkable, along with their cute little trolley car in case folks are too lazy to walk. Will the architecture win any national awards ? No. Still, it amazes me how much stuff is packed in there, and still yet to come, and so far, not a serious traffic problem navigating through the two to three block area between Lassiter Mill and I-440. I know more stuff is planned in addition to the soon-to-start Walter Tower, but not sure exactly how much.
However, I do have concerns about the soon-to-start Midtown-St. Albans project, and I am not as optimistic that it won't have any negative on traffic at Wake Forest Road. They spent 17 years or so acquiring the land and 2 years meeting with city officials, but I still wonder how it will all work, traffic wise.
For years, Greensboro had the tallest non-downtown building in the state. Heck, Greensboro still has the state's largest arena I believe. It's great to have variety around the state. However, we have had this midtown Raleigh vs Charlotte's mutiple smaller live/work/play centers dotted around the city debate before. Way back when, we (Trent and I) both agreed that I-440 created midtown similarly to how I-277 is causing midtown, Stonewall, Gateway, and South end to rise rapidly. This is why I asked him on the previous page what is his definition and to please post pictures. I did that with full knowledge of what North Hills looks like in the area surrounding midtown park.
The entire goal of bringing up midtown was an attempt to say "Hey, we've got something on Charlotte" thanks to I-440 (while completely ignoring the NFL/MLS stadium and the 400ft-plus towers off of an I-277 exit near the Stonewall Street light rail station). I mean really? We're now at the point of omitting parts of Charlotte just to give props to Raleigh.
What Raleigh truly has on Charlotte is NC State University and that's no half-truth.
Man, what? I’m really trying not to be a jerk here but for as much as you claim to know what you are talking about when forcing these comparisons between the two cities, your information or ideas are painfully inaccurate at times.
No one is omitting anything with Charlotte? You seem to be either downplaying certain aspects of Raleigh or forcing comparisons with things in Charlotte to make “xyz” example seem less impressive when they usually aren’t apples to apples comparisons.
Charlotte does not have a suburban/urban development in the same style of NHs. It just doesn’t. It’s no big deal. I haven’t seen anybody use it as some bragging rights? Who cares. Ballantyne looks like maaaayybbbee it will really get denser and taller in the future. Potentially River District. But from what we know, not necessarily the same way Park City or Downtown South are being proposed or how NHs is being built now. Maybe it will maybe it won’t. I pray it does.
It’s also not the same as Stonewall and Southend and whatever else just because a highway separates them from Uptown like North Hills is separated from downtown.
Raleigh does not have a highway wrapped tightly around its downtown. I know you know all this. 440 is not wrapped around the city like 277 is. How can you have ever even been to Raleigh and think that’s the same?
DTR to NHs is like 5 miles. They are 1000% completely separate from eachother. For good or bad how every you care to view it. But nobody is talking about Southends rising skyline or the development on Stonewall etc as second or 3rd skylines because they are literally just extensions of Uptown center city at this point. Which in my opinion is a GOOD thing and seems like a great bragging point for gap Charlotte will always have when it comes to things like skyline arguments lol.
All I know is Wilmington, Raleigh, Cary Durham, Greensboro, Wiston Salen, Fayetteville and Charlotte are all doing great development in their cities and all these cities are different. Each has something that the other cities do not have, As far asI know, there is no two cities in the USA are alike.
I know Raleigh has things in their city that no other city in North Carolina has. Good for them.
Just because Charlotte and Raleigh are the fastest growing cities in North Carolina does not mean they are alike. Why are we trying to compare Charlotte with Raleigh? Reminber that Raleigh has to compete wity RTP
Looks like bigger the city, it has more development. For some people in NC, hey would not like living in any large cities in North Carolina.
Iwill post what is going on in Charlotte, does not means it is better than any other city in NC.
Charlotte does not have a suburban/urban development in the same style of NHs. It just doesn’t.
Same style, layout, and look? No. Similar function with similar local popularity catering to a similar demographic? YES!
North Hills
South Park
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
