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I don't care what the 4 tallest will be including those outside of downtown Raleigh. Because it's outside of downtown. And I'm only using downtown as a measuring stick. And I chose downtown Raleigh because I think pretty highly of it.
Well that’s my point in these inevitable Charlotte vs Raleigh sniping contests. You are measuring on terms only Charlotte is playing at (tall buildings downtown). Raleigh can not and does not compete on those terms so it’s basically just a meaningless ego boost.
Comparing Charlotte's skyline with anything in NC is pointless. Charlotte's skyline is simply off the hook and there is no way anything will change that in our lifetime. Charlotte has [successfully] invested in the banking industry and that is where much of the high-rise growth has come from - Duke Power, as well. As a consequence of the many high-paying jobs, residential high-rises were also viable. Charlotte has chosen to create a big image city and it shows.
Raleigh, along with Greensboro, Durham and Winston-Salem - have chosen different paths, with focus on smaller companies that may not find it necessary to operate out of Uptown Charlotte. We have chosen to balance our growth by spreading it along several smaller industries - not that technology is a small industry - with emphasis on home-grown companies. This path will take a very long time to bear fruits and help us create a respectable skyline. Although I generally agree that skyline isn't everything, the lack of it in cities like Raleigh could send wrong messages. Where is the growth? Why would a big company consider Downtown Raleigh if they have been looking at the same skyline for over 10 years? The bad news for us is that there will be nothing of significant height for a very long time. PNC Plaza, Two Hanover Square and Wells Fargo Plaza will remain the three tallest high-rises for Raleigh for longer than most of us think. Even Smokey Hollow Phase 3 may not add the kind of height to challenge Wells Fargo. The scariest part for me - and some may strongly disagree - is that we continue to lose prime real estate to projects between 9 and 20 floors. This will continue until the only parcels available for redevelopment will be the ones where smaller historic buildings are currently standing.
Comparing Charlotte's skyline to any other skyline in this state would be a waste of time. There is no need to defend Raleigh's skyline. Some of you already explained the reasons, but I want to add some more. Our local business community is not interested in doing much in the core of our city. First Citizens Bank is the perfect example, but there are more. Only a few local developers are truly capable of delivering something big, and even fewer actually want to enter the Downtown market. The city leaders are too busy catering to the NIMBY hordes, who also happen to be their voters. Securing their position seems to be more important, although there are some of them who actually were NIMBYs, before they were elected. Today's Triangle Business Journal had a nice article on density, titled Raleigh city council grapples with density talk, from which I will share the following excerpt:
You may interpret the above in a couple of different ways, but the bottom line is that there is no unified front to make Downtown Raleigh the true focus of development. There are some "romantic" promoters who keep the effort alive, but I personally find the current city council to be too little to deliver the goods. I am not suggesting they don't love their city, but their agenda will always conflict with the grande vision we had for Downtown Raleigh - and not only Downtown. Thankfully, we have a developer (John Kane) who has a way of getting things done and he is slowly increasing his activity in Downtown Raleigh, but one is not enough.
Last, but not least, I wish some Charlotte players - companies and developers - could enter Downtown Raleigh with some ambitious plans. I think that Duke Power owes us at least that much, since they emptied Two Progress Plaza and scattered many Progress Energy workers around the Triangle. The new bank (BB&T-SunTrust) could also do something to increase its presence in the Triangle, starting with a much larger Downtown Raleigh workforce. I know... Wishful thinking.
I wouldn't associate Raleigh with GSO and Winston. Those cities are no Raleigh-Durham. Raleigh's peers are Charlotte, Nashville, Austin, Orlando. GSO and Winston are just not anywhere near that level. Not trying to be harsh, just saying what I think to be fact.
1.) RDU kicked CLT's badonky donk during the recession for years. It recovered faster, grew faster, was more resilient, etc. (Trust me. The posters here had a field day with that. You know how CLT posters post all their skyscrapers and crap? Back then, RDU posters constantly - daily - posted the employment numbers, growth numbers, etc.... and... BED BUGS. Charlotte ranked as one of the highest cities with bed bugs and that was thrown around here like the gospel.). RDU's Tech industry is so great. GSO/Winston have nothing, nothing comparable.
2.) Raleigh's skyline/lack of highrises in comparison to Charlotte isn't due to Raleigh leaders not trying or keeping a lid on growth. It's about Demand. I say it ALL the time. Charlotte gets highrises because of DEMAND. If there was no demand, there would be no towers. And Charlotte is a big player in the entire country. I think I read Charlotte had the 4th overall (before even Duke and SunBB) largest raw number increase in of office space in the CBD in the US. The office construction in CBD CLT is among the strongest. That's including metros much, much larger. If there is demand, Raleigh will get it.
3.) None of the CLT companies are gonna build towers in Raleigh unless they become Raleigh companies... Maybe BofA and other financial institutions could open up wealth management offices or customer advisory places. That's about it though
Well that’s my point in these inevitable Charlotte vs Raleigh sniping contests. You are measuring on terms only Charlotte is playing at (tall buildings downtown). Raleigh can not and does not compete on those terms so it’s basically just a meaningless ego boost.
I was using downtown Raleigh to show the growth in 10 years in uptown high rise development.
If it comes across as a meaningless ego boost to you, then so be it. I don't really care. But I think it's a nice way to present the growth in uptown CLT in 10 years.
I was using downtown Raleigh to show the growth in 10 years in uptown high rise development.
If it comes across as a meaningless ego boost to you, then so be it. I don't really care. But I think it's a nice way to present the growth in uptown CLT in 10 years.
Charlotte’s growth is good enough on it’s own without trying to demean Raleigh’s and even then ignoring towers in Raleigh’s skyline because you don’t count NH as part of said skyline.
I wouldn't associate Raleigh with GSO and Winston. Those cities are no Raleigh-Durham. Raleigh's peers are Charlotte, Nashville, Austin, Orlando. GSO and Winston are just not anywhere near that level. Not trying to be harsh, just saying what I think to be fact.
1.) RDU kicked CLT's badonky donk during the recession for years. It recovered faster, grew faster, was more resilient, etc. (Trust me. The posters here had a field day with that. You know how CLT posters post all their skyscrapers and crap? Back then, RDU posters constantly - daily - posted the employment numbers, growth numbers, etc.... and... BED BUGS. Charlotte ranked as one of the highest cities with bed bugs and that was thrown around here like the gospel.). RDU's Tech industry is so great. GSO/Winston have nothing, nothing comparable.
2.) Raleigh's skyline/lack of highrises in comparison to Charlotte isn't due to Raleigh leaders not trying or keeping a lid on growth. It's about Demand. I say it ALL the time. Charlotte gets highrises because of DEMAND. If there was no demand, there would be no towers. And Charlotte is a big player in the entire country. I think I read Charlotte had the 4th overall (before even Duke and SunBB) largest raw number increase in of office space in the CBD in the US. The office construction in CBD CLT is among the strongest. That's including metros much, much larger. If there is demand, Raleigh will get it.
3.) None of the CLT companies are gonna build towers in Raleigh unless they become Raleigh companies... Maybe BofA and other financial institutions could open up wealth management offices or customer advisory places. That's about it though
1). Really? Dang LOL. I know when I first signed up here, tensions were through the roof between CLT and Raleigh posters. Glad it's calmed down a bit. But bickering about Bed Bugs is actually comical.
2)Yeah pretty much. The main reason is demand. I do think Raleigh city council needs some change and maybe that would help a bit but overall it's simply demand. I think we both posted about the latest US office space report for 2018 and both the RDU and CLT markets are very strong nationally. Both in gross numbers absorbed as well as built and planned. The difference being the kind of demand for that office space. Charlotte's industry demands huge towers and is focused mostly on Uptown, RDUs main industry's usually prefers office parks with RTP as the core of that. It's starting to shift sure but Raleigh will never look like Charlotte because no matter how obvious it seems to compare them as the 1st and 2nd largest cities in the Carolina's, their demands and development history are completely different. But both can be great in their own right.
Charlotte’s growth is good enough on it’s own without trying to demean Raleigh’s and even then ignoring towers in Raleigh’s skyline because you don’t count NH as part of said skyline.
Rest assured I’m not the only one who doesn’t consider North Hills as part of downtown Raleigh.
My intention wasnt to offend you that Downtown Charlotte has more towers than downtown Raleigh. I’ve told you several times, to show the growth of the past 10 years, I used the 2nd largest city in the Carolinas.
I wouldn't associate Raleigh with GSO and Winston. Those cities are no Raleigh-Durham. Raleigh's peers are Charlotte, Nashville, Austin, Orlando. GSO and Winston are just not anywhere near that level. Not trying to be harsh, just saying what I think to be fact.
Ironically Winston always had a case for having a better skyline than Raleigh. PNC tower made it debatable.
Ironically Winston always had a case for having a better skyline than Raleigh. PNC tower made it debatable.
I meant overall metro in that quote. I actually like Winston’s skyline a lot.
It would shocked me if the Raleigh downtown skyline doubled or tripled within a 7 year period. Not sure when that period will begin. But the dynamics are there - IMO - for high rise residential and an office tower or two.
CLT’s boom is different from Nashville and Austin that there’s were much more skewed towards residential and CLT heavily skews towards office. I think Downtown Raleigh is primed for Nashville/Austin type of highrise boom.
(Though downtown Winston last time I went was terrible pedestrian wise - but to be fair, I was around the Wells Fargo tower. I didn’t see the innovation district or whatever)
Ironically Winston always had a case for having a better skyline than Raleigh. PNC tower made it debatable.
Winston has a great skyline. I still hold to the fact that I think it punches above it's weight for a city it's size. Though for me personally Raleigh left it behind quite a bit ago it still is very aesthetically pleasing. I think Hwy 52 really helps show it off. Unfortunatley Raleigh most common view on I40 sucks. It's better this time of year when trees don't block as many angles as you round the bend but it still doesn't show it off every well. Out of towners really need to come down Wake Forest Rd. by the Trader Joe's to get the best angle imo. Actually makes you feel like you are about to drive into a large city.
I meant overall metro in that quote. I actually like Winston’s skyline a lot.
It would shocked me if the Raleigh downtown skyline doubled or tripled within a 7 year period. Not sure when that period will begin. But the dynamics are there - IMO - for high rise residential and an office tower or two.
CLT’s boom is different from Nashville and Austin that there’s were much more skewed towards residential and CLT heavily skews towards office. I think Downtown Raleigh is primed for Nashville/Austin type of highrise boom.
(Though downtown Winston last time I went was terrible pedestrian wise - but to be fair, I was around the Wells Fargo tower. I didn’t see the innovation district or whatever)
I hate how you can’t edit post here after a few hours: I meant to say it Would NOT shock me if Raleigh’s downtown highrise double or tripled in a short window.
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