cops kill woman in costco in Loudoun Co. (office, charge)

[elias9193]

A woman with no prior criminal history is dead and we don't know all the facts right now so this needs to be investigated throughly to see if excessive force was used. We also need to find out if this could've been prevented so some poor soul that has been having life issues and is having a hard time dealing with them isn't killed in the future. There are definitely some learning points here, especially for the Loudoun Co Sheriffs Department.

[sullyguy]

Originally Posted by elias9193

There are definitely some learning points here, especially for the Loudoun Co Sheriffs Department.

Or perhaps the Loudoun County Board of Supervisors (or equivalent) - time to get a real police force in place rather than a rural-history-derived Sherrif's Office.

[dkf747]

Originally Posted by CAVA1990

Is nobody else astounded by the fact that in 2013 the police have no way of incapacitating someone effectively without killing them?

I love cops, but I am definitely surprised how often they say, "we had no choice" when, in fact, they probably did have some choices. I don't know enough about this case to say though.

[dansik]

Originally Posted by r small

Good points. But a couple of observations. A clear plastic shield can easily carried in the trunk of the patrol car. And in a situation like this one a shield would seem to be a useful tool. Also, my experience is that pepper spray works pretty fast. I tried it out myself once. I sprayed a little on the wall of my shower then inhaled the fumes. Within two or three seconds I was tearing up and had difficulty breathing. I would think a good dose right in the face would be pretty effective. It is nasty stuff. And I wouldn't think that two officers would have much trouble getting the cuffs on this woman who from the pics I saw didn't appear to be very large. A small Asian woman. Anyway, I predict that when the dust settles this shooting will be determined to be justified, though I will remain unconvinced.

Again, as someone who has to put handcuffs on a person that doesn't want handcuffs placed on them, it's not as simple as you think. The fact that she was armed with an edged weapon just compounds that issue.

OC spray works very well on a passive individual. Not so much on someone amped up. There's been plenty of times where someone who is sprayed is still able to continue doing whatever shenanigans that got them sprayed in the first place. They won't start complaining until the adrenaline goes down and they're in cuffs.

Here's the problem with using any intermediary force options. SHE STILL HAS A DEADLY WEAPON IN HER HANDS.

Youtube 21 foot rule. Here's 1 example (
knife vs gun- 21 foot rule - YouTube).

Guns aren't magical like in the movies. People, especially those in an agitated state, can withstand multiple gunshots (since police are trained to stop the threat and not to kill, center mass does not equal head) and continue their actions. Sure they might die in the end, but they'll still have some fight left in them.

And when someone is advancing on you with a deadly weapon, there's not much time for reasoning. Even less with someone going through a mental issue.

[CAVA1990]

Any killing by a cop or other agent of the state or local government should automatically go to a special grand jury to determine whether there is probable cause for prosecution. It should not be left up to agents of the government to determine that. This would include prosecution for lying or covering up what happened. I believe a grand jury can compel testimony with no fifth amendment impediments.

[r small]

Apparently the incident was caught on video. Supposedly it's being reviewed and analysed. Hopefully we won't have to wait long before the public gets to see it too.

[GustavoFring]

Originally Posted by r small

Apparently the incident was caught on video. Supposedly it's being reviewed and analysed. Hopefully we won't have to wait long before the public gets to see it too.

I can't wait. If costco bends over and lets the police confiscate and obfuscate the video, I will stop being a customer there. They have a great reputation as employee and customer advocates, and if they roll over on this, I will be extremely disappointed.

[car54]

Originally Posted by GustavoFring

I can't wait. If costco bends over and lets the police confiscate and obfuscate the video, I will stop being a customer there. They have a great reputation as employee and customer advocates, and if they roll over on this, I will be extremely disappointed.

Costco probably has no choice about turning over the video. Why on earth would they resist turning it over anyway?

BTW, those free sample people are not Costco employees.

[dansik]

Originally Posted by CAVA1990

Any killing by a cop or other agent of the state or local government should automatically go to a special grand jury to determine whether there is probable cause for prosecution. It should not be left up to agents of the government to determine that. This would include prosecution for lying or covering up what happened. I believe a grand jury can compel testimony with no fifth amendment impediments.

Officer involved shootings typically do go before a grand jury....

[The Dissenter]

Originally Posted by GustavoFring

I can't wait. If costco bends over and lets the police confiscate and obfuscate the video, I will stop being a customer there. They have a great reputation as employee and customer advocates, and if they roll over on this, I will be extremely disappointed.

I don't think there is much they can do if they are presented with a subpoena, unless they want more trouble.