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Old 07-02-2016, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
32,762 posts, read 27,278,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northwest Indiana View Post
And its also not fair for another group to be prevented from moving into an area by intimidation tactics, but ya know, welcome to NWI where this has occurred over and over again.

People who flee an area and move in the same direction that the group they are fleeing from is moving as well will never have my sympathy when the "others" move in.
At this point, I would say the main drivers out Chicagoland are economic, not racial.
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Old 07-03-2016, 01:31 AM
 
2,140 posts, read 5,162,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWestDude View Post
As I was saying, this is idiotic. Listen to the whole thing and I don't mean to put a political spin on this but the facts and agendas speak for themselves. If this is true and materializes, that's one hell of a out of nowhere cheap shot that nobody saw coming. There goes places such as Munster!


:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO62p56VP90
But the problem is that many White ppl in NWI have this assumption that most Blacks and Hispanics whom move into their neighborhood either have housing vouchers or are drug dealers, etc. When the white flight was happening from the south suburbs, many of the Black families whom moved into places like Dolton, South Holland, Hazel Crest, Country Club Hills, and even in Homewood and Flossmoor (which saw much less flight than the others listed) had higher incomes than the White residents they replaced. For so long, those residents were confined to high-crime areas of the city. If anything, the "forced integration" of residents with housing vouchers has affected suburbs that have already been predominantly minority for a long time. Everyone knows that forced integration would effectively has a dramatic increase in White Flight (because let's be honest...in most cases around the country, the "take our neighborhoods back" rhetoric is just that..rhetoric, and people just leave) and many folks are ditching the suburbs for the city anyway. That's why some cities are becoming more White and wealthier, due to gentrification and "reverse" White Flight back into some areas.

If you look at Gary right now (for example...and yes I know, it is not exactly a suburb but to prove a point, let's say it's a suburb of Chicago) this whole Section 42 housing mess (program refers to that section of the Internal Revenue Tax Code which provides tax credits to investors who build affordable housing -- Investors receive a reduction in their tax liability in return for providing affordable housing to people with fixed or lower income) has EVERYBODY (Black, Hispanic, White, etc) upset because it is turning Concord Commons and Woodlake Village (the "nicer" complexes in Gary) 100% low income after significant improvements were made. These complexes that were already predominantly Black and lower middle - middle income are being transformed into completely low income complexes. This will be a disaster for Gary and as I expect this to continue, will slow down good redevelopment in the city and hopes for a resurgence. They are kicking out higher income (and in this instance, this means individuals making over $30K a year) and many seem like they are going to move out of Gary entirely. Now THIS seems more like social engineering than anything else.

The above is not what I was referring to though as far as diversification in NWI. What I am talking about is when a Black family making $75-80K a year moves into a place like Crown Point into a neighborhood where the current White residents are making $50-70K a year and it is assumed (because you know, Gary and Merrillville are right there) that these residents will cause problems simply because of perceptions of "Black culture"...before these new residents even have the opportunity to cause any issues, either harassment starts or people just dip from the neighborhood entirely and sell their homes at bargain basement prices which is more likely to attract investors whom are more likely to take advantage of section 42 or section 8.

Places like Munster that are nearly 100% developed AND where remaining land remains high priced and less likely to have cheap development or apartments are going to be more stable.

Places like Merrillville and Crown Point and in Porter County (Portage, Valpo, Chesterton) where land is abundant will have to be more vigilant. How many times do we hear in the newspaper about CP residents desiring to block any development for fear of attracting "undesirables?"...Crown Point Galleria, AmeriPlex at I-65/231 (which was to include a multi-family component) are two examples that have yet to be built...in Valpo, the recent development (still going on) of The Lakes at Valparaiso caused the same fear in Washington Township...this apartment community is the largest built in NWI in a long time and it is not cheap...however, when the Mansards were built (which is one of the largest) it was seen as "higher-class" at the time and so some folks in Valpo have concerns about how long will this new development stay nice and expensive (which often translates into "more White"). But then this also leads to the thought that if a place becomes less White, then it automatically means that "oh, this place is going low income" or "this place now accepts vouchers" when it may not be the case. People FIRST need to come to terms with the fact that not all minorities are poor and criminal so that anytime a non-White person moves into a predominantly White area (that isn't Asian), there is not some knee-jerk reaction to want to move. As I stated in previous posts, this is less of a concern for those residents in higher-income areas as opposed to more middle and lower income areas. As far as Munster goes, if there was an inkling that low-income housing was going to come to town, I could imagine ALL residents (which includes minorities as well) would put a stop to it. But much more difficult to do in areas where there is less concentration of money/power OR where land is a Blank slate and a new project could start out nice and you literally have to wait for it to go downhill.

So with all of the above being said, I do stand by my statement: "People who flee an area and move in the same direction that the group they are fleeing from is moving as well will never have my sympathy when the "others" move in." I will add though that I will feel more sympathetic to those where it appears that the integration was forced or implanted. But in places where it is simply just a place naturally becoming less White, then nope, no sympathy from me. Take Merrillville for example.
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Old 07-03-2016, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Sweet Home Chicago!
6,551 posts, read 5,697,310 times
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I guess to avoid the riff raff, you need to move to an area away from existing blight, an area with little to no cheap housing stock, an area with top rated schools and high property taxes.

Oh wait, I just described most of the Chicago West and North suburbs.
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Old 07-04-2016, 11:17 AM
 
2,140 posts, read 5,162,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flamadiddle View Post
I guess to avoid the riff raff, you need to move to an area away from existing blight, an area with little to no cheap housing stock, an area with top rated schools and high property taxes.

Oh wait, I just described most of the Chicago West and North suburbs.
True, and that's a given. But as some areas become a little more affordable and prices drop (and no, not referring to Hinsdale or Winnetka lol), it will be interesting to see what shifts occur. The fact is that in Chicago, the concern regarding minority population and riffraff is regarding mostly Blacks, and some Hispanic. The Black population is not growing in Chicago and shifts are largely occurring in the south suburbs. I am not saying this is you, but the vast majority of people mean lower income and/or Black when they say "riffraff".

Quote:
Originally Posted by McdonaldIndy View Post
Hmmm Carmel and Fishers say otherwise
I do think Carmel and Fishers could be an "otherwise" to the West and North suburbs only because while Carmel and Fishers are great places in and of themselves just as many north and west suburbs are--and they are considered pricey for the Indianapolis area (more so Carmel) compared to some other suburbs there--they are also not necessarily prohibitively expensive for many folks as many Chicago suburbs are. I would say that most families in Indianapolis could afford to live anywhere in the metro but it would just be based on factors like new house vs. old house, single-family home vs. townhouse or condo, rent vs. buy...in the Chicago area, you can't even get into some of the most expensive areas as a middle class family buy renting a condo. I guess that is good for keeping out riffraff, but you are also keeping out many non-riffraff people and families out.

If I were in Indianapolis area, I would be in Zionsville, Carmel, or in Washington Township in the area around Fashion Mall (or in the Meridian Hills/Williams Creek area if I could afford it).

However, the suburbs of Indianapolis overall are diversifying faster than the majority of Chicago suburbs. Despite what people say about Indiana and its racial relations (which is admittedly not much worse than Illinois), while Indianapolis has dealt with White flight, you definitely find a lot more stable and integrated neighborhoods (even within the suburbs) than you do in the Chicago area. There are neighborhoods in Brownsburg, Avon, and Plainfield that are new and diverse with Blacks, Whites, and other groups (all middle class) moving in at the same time. You don't find that really in Chicago suburbs (as far as Blacks and Whites) save for some places maybe like Bolingbrook but then compare schools in Bolingbrook to those in Indianapolis suburbs...Bolingbrook would not fall into the "most" that flamadiddle is describing.
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Old 07-04-2016, 12:21 PM
 
435 posts, read 393,610 times
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Default North & West Burbs have problem areas too

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamadiddle View Post
I guess to avoid the riff raff, you need to move to an area away from existing blight, an area with little to no cheap housing stock, an area with top rated schools and high property taxes.

Oh wait, I just described most of the Chicago West and North suburbs.
Hey, the North burbs and West burbs have their own problem areas too. For example, North Burbs you have Waukegan, North Chicago (which is not Chicago but right next to North Shore's Lake Bluff) with "raff raff" pushing into places like Zion. To the south, even though overall Evanston is nice, West Evanston is very different than East Evanston and you have "riff raff" around there too. You couldn't pay me to hang out at the Howard Red lines stop anytime of day and that is the southern border of Evanston.


West burbs - remember that nice community called Melrose Park - nice in the 60's, right? Yeah, not so nice now - not at all. Plenty of "riff raff" there. About a year ago on my way to a business meeting I had to stop to use the bathroom at a gas station in MP. In hindsight, I should have just peed my pants.


Going on, to the west of MP is Berkley (also not so nice) and then finally Elmhurst which is overall very nice. But note, very close to these "not so nice" areas with "riff raff". Oak Park/River Forest also very nice but surrounded by not so nice and downright ghetto areas (for example, Austin - sorry Austin fans). I would choose walking through Hammond, IN vs. Austin neighborhood of Chicago all day long, every day. LaGrange (very nice) has Lyons (not so very nice) right next door. Naperville (very nice) - has Aurora (def some "riff raff" there). I could go on, but hopefully the readers get the point.


With overall demographic shifts (middle hollowing out), I think you will see more stratification of communities over time. The question is which shift will a community take. At some point this whole "white flight" (I hate this term) or whatever "flight" you want to call it, will have to stop pushing outward (do people really want to live 2 hours from a major employment center). At some point, communities will stand their ground (for example, Oak Park) and realize the dirt under their feet is worth fighting for. The fact that Chicago/Cook County is one of the largest sanctuary cities in the US will also have a part in how this all plays out.


NWI and IL both are going to face these issues. NWI is a little different in that it does offer an arbitrage element vs IL. So that will be interesting to watch. By in large, IL just keeps kicking the can and the deficits grow. The proper tax increases have not yet occurred in IL.
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Old 07-04-2016, 12:29 PM
 
2,140 posts, read 5,162,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvr789 View Post
Hey, the North burbs and West burbs have their own problem areas too. For example, North Burbs you have Waukegan, North Chicago (which is not Chicago but right next to North Shore's Lake Bluff) with "raff raff" pushing into places like Zion. To the south, even though overall Evanston is nice, West Evanston is very different than East Evanston and you have "riff raff" around there too. You couldn't pay me to hang out at the Howard Red lines stop anytime of day and that is the southern border of Evanston.


West burbs - remember that nice community called Melrose Park - nice in the 60's, right? Yeah, not so nice now - not at all. Plenty of "riff raff" there. About a year ago on my way to a business meeting I had to stop to use the bathroom at a gas station in MP. In hindsight, I should have just peed my pants.


Going on, to the west of MP is Berkley (also not so nice) and then finally Elmhurst which is overall very nice. But note, very close to these "not so nice" areas with "riff raff". Oak Park/River Forest also very nice but surrounded by not so nice and downright ghetto areas (for example, Austin - sorry Austin fans). I would choose walking through Hammond, IN vs. Austin neighborhood of Chicago all day long, every day. LaGrange (very nice) has Lyons (not so very nice) right next door. Naperville (very nice) - has Aurora (def some "riff raff" there). I could go on, but hopefully the readers get the point.


With overall demographic shifts (middle hollowing out), I think you will see more stratification of communities over time. The question is which shift will a community take. At some point this whole "white flight" (I hate this term) or whatever "flight" you want to call it, will have to stop pushing outward (do people really want to live 2 hours from a major employment center). At some point, communities will stand their ground (for example, Oak Park) and realize the dirt under their feet is worth fighting for. The fact that Chicago/Cook County is one of the largest sanctuary cities in the US will also have a part in how this all plays out.


NWI and IL both are going to face these issues. NWI is a little different in that it does offer an arbitrage element vs IL. So that will be interesting to watch. By in large, IL just keeps kicking the can and the deficits grow. The proper tax increases have not yet occurred in IL.
I would think that is why flamadiddle said "most" and not "all"

The nice areas do outweigh the not-so-nice areas in those north and west suburbs more so than the nice areas in NWI outweigh the not-so-nice. And I am speaking in terms of population size and geographic size as well. But none of these areas are immune.
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Old 07-04-2016, 12:45 PM
 
435 posts, read 393,610 times
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Default Agree, but they are shifting too....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northwest Indiana View Post
I would think that is why flamadiddle said "most" and not "all"

The nice areas do outweigh the not-so-nice areas in those north and west suburbs more so than the nice areas in NWI outweigh the not-so-nice. And I am speaking in terms of population size and geographic size as well. But none of these areas are immune.

Yes, I understand, but "most" will likely start to change into "some" as they are shifting too. In contrast, more gentrification is occurring in the city of Chicago itself near the core.
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Old 07-04-2016, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Humboldt Park, Chicago
2,686 posts, read 7,609,118 times
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Default Too many generalizations

Aurora is 3 times the size of Carmel and has very nice parts and ghetto parts (near downtown).

Many parts of Aurora look like Naperville and there are plenty of homes on Naperville side of Aurora that exceed 500k (and 10-15k taxes). It is not all poor people.

Much of north and western burbs are affluent but there are pockets like Maywood that are very poor.

You have a lot of very poor and very rich people living in close proximity to each other in Chicago. Not so much in north shore where almost everyone has money (much more affluent than Carmel or Zionsville). Average income for areas like Kenilworth and Glencoe exceed 200k per year.
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Old 07-04-2016, 01:15 PM
 
435 posts, read 393,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWestDude View Post
As I was saying, this is idiotic. Listen to the whole thing and I don't mean to put a political spin on this but the facts and agendas speak for themselves. If this is true and materializes, that's one hell of a out of nowhere cheap shot that nobody saw coming. There goes places such as Munster!


:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO62p56VP90
So for anyone that doesn't watch the video - I believe in a nutshell there will be increased gov spending to make it affordable for low income residents to afford higher income housing in suburban areas. Sort of like what they do in Chicago where you have Section 8 people living in some of the most expensive apartments downtown (maybe a drastic example, but it is true).


I agree, this is not good for ANY middle class or upper middle class areas with some more affordable housing stock as renters typically do not take care of their homes nor get involved with the community like a homeowner would.


Part of the bigger problem is that really the mainstream media is not talking about this at all. I don't think most Americans would support this or even know about it. IMO this program is a waste of money. Bigger issue is the lack of employment opportunities for the poor and family issues. This money would be better used to provide job training for specific trade skills which are lacking in the USA or region. Teach a man how to fish. Also, teach a family how to love. Provide marriage counseling or family planning assistance. Just moving people to a nicer area will not solve the problem and bring people up. Just ask Lansing IL how this worked out for them....


I was watching a program the other day about the Great Depression and the CCC. Basically, the government provided financial assistance to young men and put them to work building the national parks and improving infrastructure nationwide. It employed 3 million people and those men learned trade skills they could use post the Recession. Out of this came "The Greatest Generation". IMO, the CCC program is in stark contrast to current benefit programs for the poor. I don't understand why can't have programs like the CCC again.


Sorry for getting political, but hey, vote blue and it appears the housing policies above will be coming to a community near you soon.
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Old 07-04-2016, 01:24 PM
 
435 posts, read 393,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humboldt1 View Post
Aurora is 3 times the size of Carmel and has very nice parts and ghetto parts (near downtown).

Many parts of Aurora look like Naperville and there are plenty of homes on Naperville side of Aurora that exceed 500k (and 10-15k taxes). It is not all poor people.

Much of north and western burbs are affluent but there are pockets like Maywood that are very poor.

You have a lot of very poor and very rich people living in close proximity to each other in Chicago. Not so much in north shore where almost everyone has money (much more affluent than Carmel or Zionsville). Average income for areas like Kenilworth and Glencoe exceed 200k per year.
Yes, you are right, not all are poor in Aurora. On the other hand, it is not devoid of "riff raff" either.

Yes, North Shore is prob the best bet if you really want to bunker down and avoid the "riff raff" . For example, Kenilworth is an excellent choice in this regard. Just be ready to pony up and pay for it Average home is like what, $1.5 mil?
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