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Does it matter how Pagans see Jesus or how Christians think we see him? In the end does it really matter? If so how or how not? .
It matters in the sense of coming to the table knowing what the others are thinking.
The way I view Jesus as a Heathen comes not only from the 'live and let live' spirit of Heathenry in general, but also from what I must admit is vast experience in the variety of Christians due to personal interaction.
For the most part you can intuit much about aMan [or Woman]'s spirit and attitude by what Gods resonate with them; the certain type fo God attracts the certain type of person and vice versa. It's a type of resonance, in a very real sense.
When you run into a hellfire spouting fundamentalist, you already understand a great deal about that person as a whole, because of what version of their Jesus they follow. They are not good people. They want those who are different to suffer for that difference; they wish torturous vengeance on their enemies, for the smallest slights; they want God to be angry and vicious, but they also want to hide their own evil joy about such torture using words like 'love' and 'salvation'. They want to be wise men without actually having any wisdom. They want to debunk science they don't even know about. They evidence a total lack of rational thought.
On the other end of the scale you have the more liberal Christians who actually follow the spirit of Jesus' quasi-Buddhist message. They do not follow the edicts against homosexual people, they understood evolution is true long before the Pope admitted it, they walk the talk and are generally peaceful and understanding.
You need to be able to tell the difference; you don't wish to come off defensively to an undeserving peaceful Christian [as they don't deserve it], and you don't want to be unprepared for the rabid stupidity of the fundamentalist. You need to know your enemies.
As for what I think of Jesus... since it is my considered opinion that we know very little about him, and are instead observing what is essentially Paulism - and Paul being more or less identical to David Koresh with what appears to be latent self-hating closeted homosexuality tossed in for added angst - I find the most rational explanation is not simple.
Most likely he is an agglomeration of more than one person, with a single man being the main protagonist, and merely a man. A successful radical jewish cult creator whose cult was taken over by an outsider after the originator's death. It is possible Jesus was a Buddhist, attempting to meld his native Judaism with this new philosophy. Centuries later the Roman empire took the cult's writings and made it official for the state in order to unify the empire itself; merely a political device. The complied canon is a confused, often contradictory mishmash of ideas, whose open-endedness provide a toolkit for the less rational to feel empowered by. And for politicians to use as a uniting tool, with an accent on roping in the uninformed and unsophisticated.
I don't think that's the point. The implication is that Jesus was the first 'real' faith. The Mother was just some falsehood. This is extremely insulting, but it is terrible to these same people if you say their god and symbol are a falsehood. Or just to not agree with them.
This isn't everyone, but someone likely to site length religion in existance is more likely to be this sort. I know many christians who know I'm pagan and don't care and would NEVER say I should convert so this clearly does not apply to all.
At the start, when christianity was first spreading, many were forced to convert. The Roman empire became christan as a political move and those who refused to follow were pressured up to death to do as told. Once the church took power, later, "hold outs" were often *forced* to become christians, and those who refused and practiced secretly could pay with a hidious death. I really honor those who did continue despite the danger and the absolute dictatorial policy of christans only (and as the crusades proved, only the *right* kind). We should honor them as stalwarts of religious freedom. How many 'converted' since they didn't want to die?
The day of christmas was made December 25th after the northern parts of Europe were force converted (also as expediant politics). There was a major solstus related holiday on the 26th. New converts celebrated their 'new' religion with the same accutriments as the others. Nobody could tell. So the christan holiday was moved back a day.
And yes, there were traditional practicers of Celtic paganism who never stopped and passed it onto the next generation while mouthing out the offical words of the offical religion. Just as the Aztecs could seem to pray to the christan god in the cathedral, but centuries later, the main alter damaged in an earthquake, the symbols of the aztec gods were discovered to have been carefully and secretly placed by the native slave labor as it was built. People find a way to live and follow their heart at the same time. But clearly enough of the pagan tradition lived on that the church was worried it would pollute their power.
When people talk about how christianity spread rapidly, they must remember it largely spread at the point of a sword, not a change of mind. Most people were not overly religious as they are now, did the words and what they had to but without much meaning even then. They could do the words and do the display with this new religion too. You really don't think that people told they must convert or die were really worshiping the christian god as believers.
People today talk about the muslems, and how they want everyone to convert. If there was an edict that you had to be a muslem, starting tomorrow, or else, would you? Think about it. Would you be willing to lose everything, especially your life in a torturous death, for your faith? Or would you 'hide' it and comply? Or would you really care? That was the choice most of those forced to convert faced.
And there's a perfectly good reason why politics/power and religion should NEVER be allowed to mix.
It matters in the sense of coming to the table knowing what the others are thinking.
The way I view Jesus as a Heathen comes not only from the 'live and let live' spirit of Heathenry in general, but also from what I must admit is vast experience in the variety of Christians due to personal interaction.
For the most part you can intuit much about aMan [or Woman]'s spirit and attitude by what Gods resonate with them; the certain type fo God attracts the certain type of person and vice versa. It's a type of resonance, in a very real sense.
When you run into a hellfire spouting fundamentalist, you already understand a great deal about that person as a whole, because of what version of their Jesus they follow. They are not good people. They want those who are different to suffer for that difference; they wish torturous vengeance on their enemies, for the smallest slights; they want God to be angry and vicious, but they also want to hide their own evil joy about such torture using words like 'love' and 'salvation'. They want to be wise men without actually having any wisdom. They want to debunk science they don't even know about. They evidence a total lack of rational thought.
On the other end of the scale you have the more liberal Christians who actually follow the spirit of Jesus' quasi-Buddhist message. They do not follow the edicts against homosexual people, they understood evolution is true long before the Pope admitted it, they walk the talk and are generally peaceful and understanding.
You need to be able to tell the difference; you don't wish to come off defensively to an undeserving peaceful Christian [as they don't deserve it], and you don't want to be unprepared for the rabid stupidity of the fundamentalist. You need to know your enemies.
As for what I think of Jesus... since it is my considered opinion that we know very little about him, and are instead observing what is essentially Paulism - and Paul being more or less identical to David Koresh with what appears to be latent self-hating closeted homosexuality tossed in for added angst - I find the most rational explanation is not simple.
Most likely he is an agglomeration of more than one person, with a single man being the main protagonist, and merely a man. A successful radical jewish cult creator whose cult was taken over by an outsider after the originator's death. It is possible Jesus was a Buddhist, attempting to meld his native Judaism with this new philosophy. Centuries later the Roman empire took the cult's writings and made it official for the state in order to unify the empire itself; merely a political device. The complied canon is a confused, often contradictory mishmash of ideas, whose open-endedness provide a toolkit for the less rational to feel empowered by. And for politicians to use as a uniting tool, with an accent on roping in the uninformed and unsophisticated.
Not a pretty picture at all.
Actually a very sound and spiritually healthy assessment of the state of Christianity . . . for a "heathenly" pagan. (I enjoyed your creation of "heathenry" so much thought I would join in the fun.)
This question is about as relevant as asking Christians what their feelings are about the Goddess.
Yes, but, most Christians were not raised with the Goddess, and have no frame of reference for Her. Most Pagans, on the other hand, were raised with Jesus and have some opinion.
True, growing up Lutheran every thing was male dominated. I thought this was strange, god had to have a female counterpart because we were made in his image (I prefer the term there image) I guess you could call me christian , I believe in God and Christ, however I also believe that there are many paths to him/her. I also believe in reincarnation, it makes sense to me, God wants us to learn and become better, and for most of us that will take lifetimes. Christs message to me was about love without condition
True, growing up Lutheran every thing was male dominated. I thought this was strange, god had to have a female counterpart because we were made in his image (I prefer the term there image) I guess you could call me christian , I believe in God and Christ, however I also believe that there are many paths to him/her. I also believe in reincarnation, it makes sense to me, God wants us to learn and become better, and for most of us that will take lifetimes. Christs message to me was about love without condition
I think if more Christians felt like this, Christianity might retain more people who are walking away. People just get tired of having conditions put on their relationships.
I think if more Christians felt like this, Christianity might retain more people who are walking away. People just get tired of having conditions put on their relationships.
Having practised on both sides, if Pagans continued through life ever increasing their good karma and Christians continued through life following the teachings of Jesus, then none of us would have any problems. Some for Summerland and others for Heaven!
However, the vast majority on both sides do not follow through on their religious beliefs but sink to the basic desires of human nature, directing outbursts of negative emotional energy towards anyone who is either different or who represents a threat to them. Therefore on a human level we will always be at war with one another, which is unfortunate but true.
But ultimately it is not the Christians that Pagans should be concerned about, but the Lord God and what he specifically says, and the Lord God warns of the ultimate punishment, here quoted:
Revelation 21:8 …those who practice magic arts …their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur… the second death.
and... wait for it!
Those who practice witchcraft (aka sorcery) will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:20-21).
Now that's quite a set of words, and if you have walked and have been part of any Satanic circle you will know that one of the highest virtues is lying; but within Christian circles, truth. Therefore as the above words relate to the master of truth (Jesus) and not the deceiver (Satan), then they must be true. Additionally, those Pagans who also believe in Jesus and his teachings of love (and there are many) should also concede that the words spoken by Jesus in the Book of Revelations will come about.
On the other hand, Pagans who do not agree with this viewpoint, can always use an occult revenge spell on Christians, but that wouldn't be good karma or take inspiration from the 4th book of Magick in Theory and Practice by Aleister Crowley (circa 1929), again not good karma, and personally why bother!
Maybe Christians should give the Pagan community an apology and stop trying to beat them up. If anybody is going to dish out any criticism, punishment or final judgement, it will be the Lord God; and I suspect on both Pagans and Christians alike when the time comes. But for the moment there is absolutely no need for any quarrels, arguments or pointing of fingers, because it's just all hot air!
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(I enjoyed your creation of "heathenry" so much thought I would join in the fun.)
Hot Air Blowing Up from the Chimneys of Hell
