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Dew Drop Inn I agree totally on the do not yell and the death stares it works really well I wish my mom was closer to have shown me this and told me about it early it on. As for the time out I put my children in time out for what ever their age is not around me but in a room where there is nothing to do or look at (no TV, toys, etc.). If my kids fight I was told by a very wise Pediatrician once and it works you put the children sitting together holding hands for the age of the oldest is in the fight/debate. The kids catch on fast also when out in public if the kids are not behaving there will be a nudge under the table to do the Vulcan Stare of Death they do stop because they know the wrath will come if they do not stop. But keep in mind they are kids and do not come to my house because I will not hear or see you with the laughing and darts and balls flying around inside we all need to let off steam sometime during the day. Have a Great Day and enjoy them they grow up way to fast.
I think that this is fairly typical for his age. However he could have unusual issues if it is really severe or continues through 7 or 8 years old. .
Part of what is going on is him testing to see his limits and what issues he can use to control you. My wife used to get really upset the first time one of our kids said "I Hate You" That told them that they had a powerful tool to control mommy and impact mommy. It meant attention was focused on them. We started counting the "I hate yous" and celebrating them. "ha Ha I got three I hate yous today and you only got one!" When they said I hate you, we said "Thank you, but I still love you" then we would call out to the other 'Ha I got an I hate you" and dance around in celebration. Suddenly we did not get them anymore.
During normal temper tantrums I would sometimes scream "whoo Hoo I want to play too" and lay on the floor and wail and scream and pound my fists with them. It kind of takes the power out to the tantrum thing. They woudl stop immediately and start yelling at me to stop. I would stop and ask "Oh are we done?" I never did get an answer, but the tantrum was over - what was the point?
People will attack this, but we have always had the best behaved and most polite kids around and now they are well adjusted teens and young adults. If we messed them up, they are good at keeping it to themselves.
Sometimes though it is not just normal emotional attention seeking and testing. We had a daughter that would have out of control tantrums that would last for hours and hours. Nothing would stop them. She would scream and kick, foam at the mouth, break things and hurt herself. It literally went on for three hours or more and generally happened several times a day. She had dozens of tests. Every scan and test you can think of. They found nothing. We knew that it was related to a major surgery she had at 8 months old where they basically killed her and brought her back. The Dr.s at the surgury told us that she woudl be different becuase babies that are killed and resucitated always are different, they do not know why. Some of the later Dr.s agreed that it was probably related, but id not know what to do about it. Others said they never heard of such a thing and it had to be something else. Those were the ones who tested and scanned and investigated. The only thing we could do was roll her up in a comforter so she could not hurt anyone or herself and wait until she wore herself out. She had trouble in kindergarten due to her temper and we had to pull her out and start again the next year. When she got older she was on some medication that made her zombie like. We took her off that. The tantrums were preferable. Eventually they switched to some medication that is for epilepsy. It takes the highs and lows off emotion from what I understand. That helped for a couple of years but it still changed her. Eventually she asked to be taken off it. She went to regular weekly counseling and learned anger control techniques. Now at 17 she is charming, sweet and very much in control. She still has explosions of anger, but she goes away and uses the tools that she was taught and no longer has significant problems with anger. She is doing ok in school and is planning to go to college.
The point is that even if it is a severe problem, he will eventually grow out of it and cna learn to cope with it through counseling. Having been through the drug thing, I would advise against it. It is not a solution, just a band aid. When you see what those mind controlling drugs do to kids, it is terrible and terrifying. There may be some difficult times, but I can guarantee you that it is worth it.
So last night I started the time-out thing, letting him know before-hand that was the immediate consequence of using the name-calling or throwing things/hitting us, etc. The first time, he was upset because he thought his sister took his fork, and I thought it was her's too and told him so. He just absolutely lost it, and did end up hitting me. He had time out immediately (in his room which I know is not preferable but it's so much easier to contain him there). He screamed and threw things and slammed the door (I held the door knob after the first few times.) I had told him while i was talking him there that he could come out and join us at dinner when he was calm. He went on like that for a good 15 minutes. DH got up fairly soon to go in there but I stopped him. But after that 15 minutes DH couldn't tolerate both the noise and the thoughts that DS was so upset, and went in despite my feelings on the matter. DS instantly shut up when DH walked in -- what does that tell you? They talked for a while and DS came out and apologized.
I was content to let him stay in there indefinitely. Yes, it was upsetting that he sounded so upset, but the fact that he stopped the instant DH went in the room tells me a lot. Ugh! I need to get DH on board with this.
Later on, DS did something (I don't remember) and I didn't even have to drag him to his room -- he went willingly and was pretty calm quickly, though he was in there doing "homework", which he likes (writing his letters.)
Oh, and no yelling from me. I am pretty good usually about using an even tone, but like I said, I do yell at times. I will try to cut it out completely although man, I'm not a saint, lol.
And I did praise him for handling his anger well, too.
So last night I started the time-out thing, letting him know before-hand that was the immediate consequence of using the name-calling or throwing things/hitting us, etc. The first time, he was upset because he thought his sister took his fork, and I thought it was her's too and told him so. He just absolutely lost it, and did end up hitting me. He had time out immediately (in his room which I know is not preferable but it's so much easier to contain him there). He screamed and threw things and slammed the door (I held the door knob after the first few times.) I had told him while i was talking him there that he could come out and join us at dinner when he was calm. He went on like that for a good 15 minutes. DH got up fairly soon to go in there but I stopped him. But after that 15 minutes DH couldn't tolerate both the noise and the thoughts that DS was so upset, and went in despite my feelings on the matter. DS instantly shut up when DH walked in -- what does that tell you? They talked for a while and DS came out and apologized.
I was content to let him stay in there indefinitely. Yes, it was upsetting that he sounded so upset, but the fact that he stopped the instnt DH went in the room tells me a lot. Ugh! I need to get DH on board with this.
Later on, DS did something (I don't remember) and I didn't even have to drag him to his room -- he went willingly and was pretty calm quickly, though he was in there doing "homework", which he likes (writing his letters.)
To the first bold, yes - DH needs to be on board, too. Sounds like you have a hunch he's reinforcing DS's behavior. If the noise/distress gets to be too much for DH, have him take a little walk, go to the garage, anything to remove himself from the situation to give the tantrum time to extinguish.
To the second bold, good job, mom!! Looks like you're already starting to see some results! It'll likely be up and down for a little while, as new variables come into play, but it sounds like you're off to a good start! Hang in there!! And yay to the no yelling (I know, it's so tough sometimes! I remind myself that the second I yell, I just teach DS that it takes X number of minutes of tantrumming to get to me, which will make the next tantrum X+1 minutes long!) and the reinforcing DS's managing his anger!
Also, if you want a resource for the basics of behaviorism (how to figure out what reinforces and extinguishes certain behaviors), try "Don't Shoot the Dog: The New Art of Teaching and Training" (Karen Pryor)- it's written in lay person's terms and has very clear examples of how we influence each others' behavior without even realizing it. Although it's not specific to children/parenting, I used to recommend it to every parent who walked into my office.
I think for DH it's a combination of sensory overstimulation (I really do think he has some Asperberger traits -- loud noises are physically painful to him), and feeling guilty because he works long hours and is not always around. DS is particularly attached to him and is a wicked daddy's boy. But I can see plainly that both kids are apt to get away with much more with him than with me.
I think for DH it's a combination of sensory overstimulation (I really do think he has some Asperberger traits -- loud noises are physically painful to him), and feeling guilty because he works long hours and is not always around. DS is particularly attached to him and is a wicked daddy's boy. But I can see plainly that both kids are apt to get away with much more with him than with me.
Aw, I feel for DH. Sensory overstimulation is very hard to deal with.
I have a suggestion for the guilt, though. This is a very counter-intuitive idea for us as parents, but it has evidence behind it from a behavioral standpoint particularly when kids are angry or acting out. The very thing we try to do as good parents (make the tantrum stop) is actually encouraging more frequent and more intense outbursts (makes the tantrums worse). So although in the short-term, going to DS and talking has some success, in the long term it's hurting him by not teaching him how to regulate and how to solve problems. When he's able to see that tantrumming doesn't give him what he wants (in this case, maybe dad's attention), he's more likely to stop and try a new strategy (hopefully something more effective that you're already teaching him). Does that make sense?
Basically it's selling DH on letting DS tantrum to the point of extinguishing the tantrums because what he's doing right now (while totally with his heart in the right place) is actually making it worse.
From a therapist perspective, I always had more luck getting parents on board by validating that they are trying to do right by their kids, but that the strategy they're using is inadvertently making it worse and then giving them this new counter-intuitive tool to actually help. Also, it's great to talk with DS after he's calmed down to consolidate the new effective strategies he's using for managing anger, so maybe DH can continue to do that part, just at a different point in the process?
Hope this is making sense!
Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 09-13-2011 at 01:00 PM..
Reason: paragraphs are good
lawmom, if it's any consolation, I've had to be stern with MrFR as far as not interfering in the time outs too. It's hard for them if they aren't here all day to get with the program, so to speak. Plus I think they really hate all the noise and just seeing the kid upset. But I literally went over the ground rules (no we don't acknowledge the lamenting and wailing - or the whole thing will fall apart. We wait until the time is up, then we discuss it with her) a bunch of times, because if we weren't doing it the same way she would have played us against each other.
In the very beginning, she would yell out "Mommy, don't you love me?" which was awful, but also kinda funny - they know exactly how to light up every button. But once she realized those tactics were futile, she would just go and do it and calm down and get on with her life. Then, as everyone else said, it really only takes a look or a tone of voice to make a difference in behavior. (Mostly. Nothing's 100% foolproof.)
I second another poster's recommendation to have him evaluated by a developmental psychiatrist, he may be somewhere on the autism spectrum.
This also came to my mind when I read about the situation. If there is Aspergers in the family; I've seen many families where autism is a family trait especially in the males. Behavioral help as soon / young as possible can make a big difference, especially if your child is only mildly autistic.
I've skimmed through most of the responses. I think, with the family history, plus the difficult time falling asleep, it would be a good idea to have him evaluated. You might want to wait and observe for a little while, but there is usually a wait to see a developmental ped, so it might be a good idea to make the appointment sooner rather than later. My son has never been one to get overly angry, but he can be very emotional, and has never been a good sleeper. He has some other quirks that have been described as "asperger's like". So far he has a dx of Sensory Processing Disorder. Anyway, there is no harm in having him evaluated. than at least you know. I don't think his level of anger is normal for a 5 yo.
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